Checking it down

[supafrey]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with this at all. In fact only an idiot bets into a dead side pot when trying to eliminate a player in a tourney. I would be more irritated if I was one of the players with chips left the other guy comes out betting at me.
Besides, the definition of collusion used in the poker room I deal in (and any I've ever played in) involves some sort of secrecy. Two guys saying "wana check it down?" is perfectly normal in any card room I've been to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. So you've never been to a casino?

[lmcclean]

As a dealer, and as the rules in my room (and every room I know of in this city) stand this is not considered collusion. As long as the players who are discussing the hand are involved in the hand and discussing it openly it is considered angeling. Angeling is considered bad form in most places, but I have never seen it result in hand being killed or any action being taken (my Casino and two others in town even openly permit it). One of the players could have had a terrible hand and was just trying to talk the other guy out of betting in hopes that he would catch up. Punishing a player for saying "check it down?" is as absurd as punishing a player for saying "I'm going to raise if you bet." It's all just table talk.
The only time I've ever seen collusion called is when they players are attempting to deceive the table by working as team. This clearly wasn't the case in this situation.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
As a dealer, and as the rules in my room (and every room I know of in this city) stand this is not considered collusion. As long as the players who are discussing the hand are involved in the hand and discussing it openly it is considered angeling. Angeling is considered bad form in most places, but I have never seen it result in hand being killed or any action being taken (my Casino and two others in town even openly permit it). One of the players could have had a terrible hand and was just trying to talk the other guy out of betting in hopes that he would catch up. Punishing a player for saying "check it down?" is as absurd as punishing a player for saying "I'm going to raise if you bet." It's all just table talk.
The only time I've ever seen collusion called is when they players are attempting to deceive the table by working as team. This clearly wasn't the case in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all we're talking about a tournament and not a cash game. Discussing hands and especially asking another player to check it down when a third player is all in is absolutely collusion and although it won't result in a dead hand (almost nothing will), it should result in a penalty after the hand is over, so long as the rules stated this. I'm nt sure where you deal so maybe your room has different rules but 90% + of the rooms in the US have this rule in place for their tournaments.

[garcia1000]

[ QUOTE ]
As a dealer, and as the rules in my room (and every room I know of in this city) stand this is not considered collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Level?

[lmcclean]

level?

And to Rottersod:
Our tournament rule state house rules are in effect for tournaments unless otherwise stated (I just looked at a copy of tourny rules and this isn't int he other wise stated category)
However, I think the point of disagreement here is over a house rules matter. For most cases our provincial gaming and liquor commission here considers the division between angeling and collusion to be defined by the house for all but the most obvious cases (signal passing, card trading, etc...)

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
As a dealer, and as the rules in my room (and every room I know of in this city) stand this is not considered collusion. As long as the players who are discussing the hand are involved in the hand and discussing it openly it is considered angeling. Angeling is considered bad form in most places, but I have never seen it result in hand being killed or any action being taken (my Casino and two others in town even openly permit it). One of the players could have had a terrible hand and was just trying to talk the other guy out of betting in hopes that he would catch up. Punishing a player for saying "check it down?" is as absurd as punishing a player for saying "I'm going to raise if you bet." It's all just table talk.
The only time I've ever seen collusion called is when they players are attempting to deceive the table by working as team. This clearly wasn't the case in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you are a dealer greatly angers me. the idea that any professional does not understand that this is a violation of one player to a hand, is collusion, and is not just table talk makes me sad about the state of our profession.

I understand that as a dealer there is nothing you can do about the managment refusing to handle this appropriately, but you seem to really believe that this is appropriate behavior.

[lmcclean]

Discussing the hand while in play has become accepted as angeling here. I know that 3-4 years ago this wasn't the case and a local card room threatened me with a lifetime ban for doing it. City wide, discussion by players involved in a hand about the hand in progress falls under angeling and not collusion. So yes, based on the standard that has been set down around here in the last 5 years or so it's perfectly acceptable. Had the showed each other their hand and offered to check it down I kill the hands in a heart beat. But to just say "I have XX, do you want to check?" is permitted. We view it as a player attempting to play their own hand because it isn't necessarily the case they have what they say they do. Seems to me that it's just different rules in different districts.

[psandman]

I don't even get this stuff about Angling.

Angle shooting is not acceptable behavior for a room to labvel something as acceptable because its merely angle shooting is absurd.

[lmcclean]

lol, it's acceptable if the big rule board clearly states in (in bold letters)
"ANGLING IS PERMITTED, only players involved in a pot may angle"

Like I said different house rules if different jurisdictions.

[Pot Odds RAC]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, it's acceptable if the big rule board clearly states in (in bold letters)
"ANGLING IS PERMITTED, only players involved in a pot may angle"

Like I said different house rules if different jurisdictions.


[/ QUOTE ]
WHAT?!?!

Angling is permitted?!?

I'm sorry but that is the most insane thing I have ever seen. Do you even know what "angling" is? At least where I am from "Angling" is a short term for the slang term "angle shooting" aka bending the rules in an unethical manner and is BY DEFINITION poor Etiquette!!! You're saying cheating is OK only if you're in the hand. I don't care about the "jurisdiction".

Whomever wrote that rule is confused.