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#22
11-19-2007, 01:48 PM
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Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
I do not think a shove is a terrible play. I just don't think it's necessarily right in this spot.
- why are we racing for all our chips in the first level with all 9 players remaining? And if we are willing to race now, who says that there aren't other players willing to race at this stage in the SNG. Doesn't that seem to take away from our FE? I understand that by winning the pot uncontested PF we pick up 25% more of our stack, however, in the scheme of chips on the table, we really don't pick up that much larger % of chips on whole table. Risk-Reward does not seem to match up. -While we would prob clear up a lot of the field with a large shove 5x the pot, I would be very weary of UTG and those in late position. They could have limped with marginal hands like KJ, Q10, QJ, 10J, etc. - Although this is a leak of mine, I truly hate overshoves and over bets and tend to call down a lot more loose when I feel I'm being pushed around or I feel it is a blatant shove to pick up 25% more chips from opponent. Also, I recently read a thread about how if some players have ANY chips invested into a pot, how much more willing they are to defend those chips, So I feel like this shove might open up some people's ranges on calls. Granted we might get 77 down to 22 to call, but those are our best case scenarios. Bottom line, I feel like the return on our investment is not worth shoving and this is just a $6.50 SNG, more people will be calling with A7 or KJ than some think. It's a tough spot definitely, it's one of those spots where I almost need to hit an 8 for set or top end of open ended straight draw with overpair to board, to feel comfortable in this spot. 
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#23
11-19-2007, 01:51 PM
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Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
at 50/100 you end up stealing preflop sometimes and other times you'll be against dead money in a flip making it worth it. With BB 50 you're relying on fold equity, probably no one has much and hopefully they aren't stupid to call you with garbage. Trying to flop a set like its your job is obvious plus equity too though, moreso with the 50 chip BB IMO. [/ QUOTE ] #2
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#25
11-19-2007, 02:01 PM
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Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
There seems to be a misconception that people are only calling his shove with premiums. I have played these $6.50 SNG"s which I believe are turbos as well. A large shove, in retrospect due to the # of poor players at these levels, IMO will only egg on a marginal hand to take a shot. If it's a turbo ur always less than 2 mins away from a level change and doubling up is always on their minds. I think shoving is Fine, however, you just hafta put it in ur mind that some speculative hand might call you to gamble it up. So shoving for strictly FE may be incorrect, Hero should be knowing there is a decent chance he/she will be racing for all the chips.
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#26
11-19-2007, 05:22 PM
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Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
what everyone seems to be failing to "merge" on with their description of the situation is that players at this level are limping all of the hands that we have dominated/are far far ahead of with a ton of overlay and almost 1/3 our stack gone. so, when people say "just recognize that when you shove people are more inclined to look you up with speculative hands", thats a good thing. yes, sometimes youre flipping, but youre either flipping with a ton of overlay or youre way ahead with a ton of overlay, either way with a healthy amount of FE. take these things into consideration, and specifically relating to the pot size as sence touched on and not just how many bb's are in your stack.
again, not saying you *need* to shove here, and at certain tables perhaps i wouldnt, but if 88 is not a shove its very very close, 99 and TT are both shoves in this particular spot. when people state *avid* opposition, it just shows me people arent relating all of the relevant factors.
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#27
11-19-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
I agree that 88 is close for shoving or limping, thats why I just go ahead an limp. 99+ shoving is probably best. You aren't so short that giving up this pot will devastate your stack. I've already said that hero calls beat me 100% though.
I wouldn't be against shoving, I just don't like it as much.
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#30
11-19-2007, 06:57 PM
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Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
[ QUOTE ]
my problem with shoving here is that you still have enough to steal blinds at next 2 levels and with out risking your tournament life. not to metion that those blinds are worth a lot more. [/ QUOTE ] The "risking the tournament life" factor is weighed in when we decide whether to shove or not.
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