KQs flop decision

[Sushiglutton]

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The draw is to the nuts, all your money is going in may as well get callers on the cheap streets when they are more likely to call.

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They are more likely to call if we do...

[maverickai]

grunching...

raise, and hope for a free turn card. If not, you still have a nuts flush draw hand. with a pot this big, most will wanna peel the flop and cold call to see the turn.

[OziBattler]

Aaron, Im trying to understand what motivated this thread but I dont think you made a flush here otherwise you probably wouldnt have posted (that and the fact you said u went busto on this trip in NC thread)

so lets see the hand to the bitter end...im guessing someone won with a hand that might have folded had you faced em with two [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

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Bellagio 15/30

The table has just filled up again, so there are lots of new faces. I'm stuck about $880 with only about $120 left to play with before I'm busto for the night.

An Indian woman limps UTG, a somewhat LAG player limps behind her, and a new guy on my right raises. I coldcall with KQ diamonds. The blinds come along as do the limpers, and it's 6-handed for two bets.

The flop is A63 with two diamonds. Checked to the raiser, who bets. My action...

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I just called (I had already made the decision to just call a flush draw when I coldcalled preflop). There's a caller out of the blinds, now it's check-raised by the Indian woman. Preflop raiser only calls, and it's my action. I'm down to 2.5 BB.

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I call again, as does the player behind me. The turn is an offsuit 2, Indian woman bets, called by all 3 players again, the river is a 4 and now the blind donks. The Indian woman very frustratedly throws her call into the pot, the guy to my right ponders a while and mucks, and I quickly muck my hand.

Donker shows 44 and Indian woman shows 66 for the flopped set and starts talking about how stupid the guy in the blind is. I sit on my remaining $32 worth of chips until the blinds reach me (no good hands), and I'm done for the night.

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Aaron, Im trying to understand what motivated this thread but I dont think you made a flush here otherwise you probably wouldnt have posted (that and the fact you said u went busto on this trip in NC thread)

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The motivation for this hand was primarily the second flop call. Afterward, this seemed like a spot where I can throw in a call/3-bet and often get the action frozen on the turn, thus giving me a free card which I will likely need (of course, probably not against a set). If I had more chips, I would have considered it. But being short-stacked as I was, I felt that a 3-bet would just look like me donking off my money, and it wouldn't have had the effect I wanted. And so in that case, I would rather just wait until I hit my hand to put extra money in the pot.

On the other hand, the flop action almost guarantees me three big bets (if I had that much to put in) on the big streets since I had position on the Indian woman, so that a free card raise also means that 20% of the time I shut down the action that I want to have. I go back and forth between these two lines (in my head, at least).

There was also a little bit of post-game rethinking regarding the first flop call. I also thought as you did that there might be some value in raising the flop right away to try to increase my chances of winning by hitting a pair (not that it would have helped anything in this specific case).

[bozlax]

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The motivation for this hand was primarily the second flop call. Afterward, this seemed like a spot where I can throw in a call/3-bet and often get the action frozen on the turn, thus giving me a free card which I will likely need (of course, probably not against a set).

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I was once criticized, rightly, by a more-experienced poster (might've even been you) for over-thinking my hands when I was running bad, and basically making up "interesting" questions about hands so that I could post them. I'm not saying this is precisely what you're doing here, but I also don't think this is as interesting as you are trying to make it out to be, interesting enough to throw in a completely out-of-tempo flop play (i.e. do these players see you cold-calling Ax preflop then call/3-betting the flop a lot?).

Point one: if you weren't short I think you would've played preflop differently. You've got position, 3 opponents, and what sound like loose blinds, normally KQs is a 3bet-or-fold preflop hand in this situation.

Point two: you parenthetically include "of course, probably not against a set." You didn't give us any read on the flop check-raiser other than that she's an Indian woman, which really doesn't tell me much, but I suspect that you're more likely to get 4bet in this sort of situation than to get a free turn card when you want one.

Overthinking and FPS will only make the slide worse, dude.

Edit: just re-read this part:

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There was also a little bit of post-game rethinking regarding the first flop call. I also thought as you did that there might be some value in raising the flop right away to try to increase my chances of winning by hitting a pair (not that it would have helped anything in this specific case).

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So, you're worried that call/3betting will look like you're stacking off, but raising a 2-tone ace-high flop having cold-called pf won't? All the thinking is making MY head hurt.

[Aaron W.]

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I was once criticized, rightly, by a more-experienced poster (might've even been you) for over-thinking my hands when I was running bad, and basically making up "interesting" questions about hands so that I could post them. I'm not saying this is precisely what you're doing here, but I also don't think this is as interesting as you are trying to make it out to be, interesting enough to throw in a completely out-of-tempo flop play (i.e. do these players see you cold-calling Ax preflop then call/3-betting the flop a lot?).

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That doesn't sound like me, but maybe it was. I've posted a lot of things that I don't remember posting.

Out of tempo plays do tend to weird up the action, and with the expected 3 villains coming along and probably an equity edge plus free card, I did think it had some merit. I don't usually don't see such plays except with very strong hands (which is why I think it has free card potential).

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Point one: if you weren't short I think you would've played preflop differently. You've got position, 3 opponents, and what sound like loose blinds, normally KQs is a 3bet-or-fold preflop hand in this situation.

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I don't view KQs as a 3-bet or fold preflop especially after three people have entered the pot (against an open-raise, absolutely). I think a coldcall is just fine and that sometimes a raise would also be good if I knew PFR a little better. I can go either way, and probably do.

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Point two: you parenthetically include "of course, probably not against a set." You didn't give us any read on the flop check-raiser other than that she's an Indian woman, which really doesn't tell me much, but I suspect that you're more likely to get 4bet in this sort of situation than to get a free turn card when you want one.

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I didn't have a read on the Indian woman at the time. I'm trying to separate the decision from the results of her having a set. Against a set, you're right that I get 4-bet a lot. I think top pair and even two pair would slow down (live game) to a call/3-bet.

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Overthinking and FPS will only make the slide worse, dude.

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I'm aware of this. I don't think I have, but checking in is always a good thing. I'll reconsider this thread a bit in light of this comment.

[bozlax]

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I'm aware of this. I don't think I have, but checking in is always a good thing. I'll reconsider this thread a bit in light of this comment.

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I was trying hard to phrase my post diplomatically, AW, as you're not some noob posting a bad beat. It does sound a lot like you're tilting/overthinking, tho, as evidenced by the way you "Chicken Littled" (no matter what you do, the worst possible thing is going to happen) your second flop decision wrt the c/r.