Gross treatment of mentally ill

[iron81]

CNN

On what planet did someone decide that the best thing to do with the mentally ill is to cut them loose? Predictably, they wind up living on the streets until they attack someone and then they go to a jail that isn't equipped to handle them, their illness gets worse and they wind up back on the street. If we had proper medical facilities they could lead productive lives, but thanks to Reagan we're stuck with dangerous people roaming the streets and we're spending a lot more money on them then we should have to.

[Copernicus]

Huh? My understanding is that Reagan made it easier to commit the mentally ill to institutions, getting them off the streets and reducing the homeless problem. He trashed Carter's mental health bill that would have "cut them loose". Its been a long time...do i have it backwards?

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
CNN

On what planet did someone decide that the best thing to do with the mentally ill is to cut them loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

On what planet did someone decide that the best thing to do with the mentally ill is to assume that it is appropriate to be in control of them in such a way that we would be in a position to 'cut them loose'?

Here's a synopsys of the way things work with the mentally ill:

They get free checks from taxpayers and free housing as well (some choose to stay in a shelter so they don't have to contribute ~ $200 of their ~ $700 they get free every month in order to get a one bedroom apartment to themselves, these are the ones who are using drugs and want 100% of that $700 per month for drugs).

They all have access to free drugs to treat their illness but some choose not to take the drugs. They are entitled to the check due to their illness and are not required to engage in any form of treatment whatsoever.

So some are getting

~ $20K free per year (cash, housing subsidies, food stamps, free medical care, discounted public transportation)

~ $20K free per year (cash, shelter provided housing and food, as well as staff at the shelter, food stamps, free medical care, discounted public transportation)

If one of them commits a crime they are taken to jail or the hospital by police (depends on the extent of the crime I have one client who had exposed himself in public twice and was only taken to the hospital by ambulance after police responded, he was not charged with a crime or taken to the police station either time).

If they are taken to the hospital they are prescribed medication (that they are already likely prescribed and are not taking despite it's free availability) and pressured into taking it. They can sign a '3 day note' (which means that the hospital has 3 days to prepare and present a case in front of a judge why they are an eminent threat to themselves or others and need to be in the hospital against their will) at any time. Arguments such as "the person did X yesterday" is not an argument and it is tough for the hospital to make their case if the person signs the three day note. And their stay in the hospital is free as well btw. They are pressured into taking meds and mostly they go along with this. They are thus 'recompensated' a short time later and provided with recommendations and referrals to outpatient services (which are usually already in place and not being utilizied unless this is the persons first encounter with the mental health system) and released. They can then ignore the referrals, throw away the meds and prescriptions they were given by the hospital. Rince and repeat. People go through this cycle for decades sometimes. All for free to them (and significant cost to taxpayers and they are really never required to take medications despite this cycle and the significant costs of repeated emergency room visits, ambulance rides, and inpatient hospitalization stays).

If they are taken to the police station and charged with a crime and appear crazy they will be evaluated by a psychologist. If crazy they will be transferred to a psych hospital run by the state and prescribed meds (that they are likely already prescribed and not taking). As long as the psychologist deems that the person was not capable of understanding the wrongness of their actions at the time of the act (ie they thought that the cop was an alien fly and that is why they swung a pipe at him) they are declared not guilty by reason of mental illness. If they are now taking meds and are recompensated they are no longer a danger to the public or themselves and are released. Now they can flush the meds, throw away the scripts, not follow through with outpatient treatment. Rince and repeate.

Sometimes they will go to jail and a lot of times they will not. A judge can issue a rogers guardianship which requires they take medication but no one can force pills down their throat, the only thing this will do is make trips to the hospital more expedient if they are being monitored somewhere on an outpatient basis in the hospital meds will be forced) When they are relesed no one is going to force pills down their throats. Rince and repeat.

Some states are likely more strict than others and send them to jail more than others but they have access to free doctors and free medication all over. They choose to not take the meds and are not required to take the meds even after multiple trips to the hospital on taxpayers dimes even after multiple criminal acts putting the public at risk. They are never convicted of a cxrime if they are crazy at the time the crime was committed, even if they were told to take their meds in the hospital the previous 5 times they did that act and were deemed not guilty because they were not taking their meds so didn't understand their action was a crime at the time they did it.

Things are far from as cut and dry as a libral would believe (or have you believe).

[Phil153]

Mentally ill people are not dangerous. It's very rare for a schizophrenic to become aggressive enough to endanger someone.

The old forced, lifetime hospitalization system was horrible, rife with abuses and indignities the likes of which would make your toes curl. At least on the street they have the dignity and comfort of being free, and have to choice to take (or not) the toxic, emotion sapping anti psychotics that make them sick and fat and lifeless. Many of which are of questionable efficacy.

I think the solution to the problem is a system of halfway houses, where people have a room and board and staffing by several nurses, but most of the freedoms and rights of those in the community. Unfortunately the current medical establishment refuses to believe that anyone is treatable with their drugs, so people that refuse to take them under the current system would be booted out. I don't know about the costs of each option, but to me

halfway houses >> community with case workers > unmanaged hospital releases >>> asylums

[MidGe]

Post deleted by iron81

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
bkholdem,
I am not sure what experience you have with assessing mental illness and with treating it, but from your post, I would say that you may be a candidate for some form of therapy. I stand to be corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets hear you make a case then. I"m all ears.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
Mentally ill people are not dangerous. It's very rare for a schizophrenic to become aggressive enough to endanger someone.

The old forced, lifetime hospitalization system was horrible, rife with abuses and indignities the likes of which would make your toes curl. At least on the street they have the dignity and comfort of being free, and have to choice to take (or not) the toxic, emotion sapping anti psychotics that make them sick and fat and lifeless. Many of which are of questionable efficacy.

I think the solution to the problem is a system of halfway houses, where people have a room and board and staffing by several nurses, but most of the freedoms and rights of those in the community. Unfortunately the current medical establishment refuses to believe that anyone is treatable with their drugs, so people that refuse to take them under the current system would be booted out. I don't know about the costs of each option, but to me

halfway houses >> community with case workers > unmanaged hospital releases >>> asylums

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a recovery movement that is the answer. The answer is not in state provided services, it is in voluntary services.

http://www.power2u.org/

http://www.bu.edu/cpr/

Community halfway house are just mini institutions run by the state with less severe instances of the same problems.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets hear you make a case then. I"m all ears.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On what planet did someone decide that the best thing to do with the mentally ill is to assume that it is appropriate to be in control of them in such a way that we would be in a position to 'cut them loose'?


[/ QUOTE ]
You tell me, if you are not sure about the planet!?!
[ QUOTE ]
They get free checks from taxpayers and free housing as well

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes? I presume you mean in the USA?
[ QUOTE ]
They all have access to free drugs to treat their illness but some choose not to take the drugs. They are entitled to the check due to their illness and are not required to engage in any form of treatment whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]
A matter of freedom of choice would you not say?
[ QUOTE ]
some are getting...


[/ QUOTE ]
And some are getting nothing!!!
[ QUOTE ]
If they are taken to the police station and charged with a crime and appear crazy they will be evaluated by a psychologist. If crazy they will be transferred to a psych hospital run by the state and prescribed meds (that they are likely already prescribed and not taking). As long as the psychologist deems that the person was not capable of understanding the wrongness of their actions at the time of the act (ie they thought that the cop was an alien fly and that is why they swung a pipe at him) they are declared not guilty by reason of mental illness.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess if you had the wrong idea about your rights, you should also be held not responsible due to you mental illness. Seems reasonable to me! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, really enough said, your idea of society seems really unappealing to me. Should be obvious to most people that have a humane understanding!

[nietzreznor]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, really enough said, your idea of society seems really unappealing to me. Should be obvious to most people that have a humane understanding!

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess some of us realize that a "humane understanding", ie treating others with the dignity and respect that human beings deserve, means not using violence and coercion to get them to live a life by someone else's design. How "humane" could a society be where one person can treat another as his/her property?

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is not in state provided services, it is in voluntary services. Community halfway house are just mini institutions run by the state with less severe instances of the same problems.

[/ QUOTE ]
Courtesy of pvn:

Note: AC hijack started by bkholdem.

Can we please get back to discussing the OP and not pushing your narrow minded, "it's the state's fault!" agenda. You guys are really awful hijackers of an interesting topic.