Angleshoot at FW... scumbag move?

Prevaricator · #1 10-11-2006, 02:40 PM

I am in the 10 25 game at Foxwoods the other day, when this hand happens (I didnt play close attention until the angleshoot part so i might have gotten preflop wrong, but it doesnt matter much).

MP raises to 150 or something like that, LP guy calls, and a kid in the bb shows his hand to 3 people next to him at the table who have already mucked, and then calls. I am pretty sure these guys have all played with each other before (not positive about LP, but ive seen the other two at FW before so i think they are at least semi-regulars)

flop comes QTx two tone. the original raiser bets some amount like 300 and then the LP guy calls it. Then the kid moves allin for ~1200 more. The original raiser goes into the tank for a bit, and then the kid pipes up, "If you have a draw, just fold, I have a set. I just dont want to get outdrawn, so if you have the flush draw please fold." the guy then mucks, and then LP mucks KQ face up and says "heh well that makes my decision easier i guess."

Then the guys who saw the kid's hand preflop start chuckling, and eventually it is revealed the kid had 99 for pretty much a total bluff (this hand was NOT tabled however; it is only confirmed from the guys who sweated his hand fwiw).

After this happens, the LP guy says this (the kid lying about his hand) is a scumbag move, and the table erupts into argument for a bit...

What does HSNL say? Hopefully guys like RBK who have a lot of experience playing at B&M can give us some insight...

MDMA · #2 10-11-2006, 02:47 PM

It's all about whether LP actually knows these guys or not. If he doesn't, then I'd consider this very douche-is since it's basically collussion in the same sense like if the guy in the middle made a horrible call just to make top-pair/something behind not be able to overcall it.

Prevaricator · #3 10-11-2006, 02:58 PM

assume MP and the kid arent colluding.

kitaristi0 · #4 10-11-2006, 03:00 PM

Which part are you saying is angleshooting, PF or the talking bit? I'm not sure about the exact rules so I can't comment on PF but the talking bit seems perfectly normal to me, nothing wrong about lying about your hand.

SlowHabit · #5 10-11-2006, 03:12 PM

How is this angleshooting? The other players at the table didn't say anything right? Also, no one told the players in the hand to fold. I bet you they felt clever for folding too since the kid can't possibly be lying since he showed his hands to three people!

And when does giving off false information be considered as a scumbag move? Are players that trapped me with their monsters by showing weakness scumbags?

Melchiades · #6 10-11-2006, 03:15 PM

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I bet you they felt clever for folding too since the kid can't possibly be lying since he showed his hands to three people!

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Yup. Nh.

Prevaricator · #7 10-11-2006, 03:19 PM

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How is this angleshooting? The other players at the table didn't say anything right? Also, no one told the players in the hand to fold. I bet you they felt clever for folding too since the kid can't possibly be lying since he showed his hands to three people!

And when does giving off false information be considered as a scumbag move? Are players that trapped me with their monsters by showing weakness scumbags?

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i might agree this is not a scumbag move, but i think your reasoning is shakey. how can you differentiate between this and a scenario in which an angleshoot that most people say is a scumbag move. examples would be what grim did, and something like looking down at aces and then pretending like you didn't see your cards. or saying that you would fold preflop to let 2 guys move in blind, and then calling when you see a good hand. in all those cases the person is giving off 'false information' so that can't be what is going on here. maybe its just because of custom, where one angleshoot has been generally accepted for so long, while the others haven't.

lapoker17 · #8 10-11-2006, 02:48 PM

his showing it to 3 other guys is whatever - it really has nothing to do with the hand.

lying about your hand is fine - not something i do, but it's not really a big deal.

fslexcduck · #9 10-11-2006, 02:50 PM

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his showing it to 3 other guys is whatever - it really has nothing to do with the hand.

lying about your hand is fine - not something i do, but it's not really a big deal.

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this is correct. not really an angleshoot, IMO. people lie all the time, the people in the hand chose to believe him.

Prevaricator · #10 10-11-2006, 02:51 PM

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his showing it to 3 other guys is whatever - it really has nothing to do with the hand.

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a couple things about that. i needed to show how found out what he had afterwards -- we can be reasonably sure he had 99, if i had not included that we would not be. also, i heard someone say at the table that if 3 or more people see the hand, the hand is dead, I believe Rog who is the indian regular at FW said this, and he probably knows the rules. Hopefully some people more familiar with FW than me can shed some light on this.