Why do we steal with Axs?

[Johnes Benjamin]

First of all, I don't know how the set vs Axs debate got going. The question was why do we raise it, and the answer is the same for both. FWIW I prefer a PP, but whatever.
We raise hands like Ax because playing a pot in position against the blinds is a good spot to be in.

You are absolutely right that 72o can play out the same if we are just folding people out, and that is why good players are very loose and aggressive from the CO and BTN.
We play Ax more than 72o b/c we are more likely to make the best hand, and we can't expect to fold out the blinds every time.
We play Axs b/c it is slightly better than Axo
We play PP b/c they are often the best hand to start and flopping a set will almost ensure they are the best hand.

One more small thing is that having an A in your hand doesn't just mean that you have a strong hand, it means the blinds are slightly less likely to have an A themselves, and therefore be slightly less likely to have a hand they can call a raise with

You are correct in stating many of the points (such as Axs vs Axo) are small differences, but poker is about getting as many small edges as you can.
I remember a high stakes limit player saying he won about 55%. He was rich b/c of that 55/45 edge.

[GT30]

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I just tried to clean NotFreeMonies bug off the screen.... levelled.

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...me too

Wish there was a way to put this bug on my PStars avatar icon...would drive people crazy

[Landlord79]

Bump

[VegasRunner]

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First of all, I don't know how the set vs Axs debate got going. The question was why do we raise it, and the answer is the same for both. FWIW I prefer a PP, but whatever.
We raise hands like Ax because playing a pot in position against the blinds is a good spot to be in.

You are absolutely right that 72o can play out the same if we are just folding people out, and that is why good players are very loose and aggressive from the CO and BTN.
We play Ax more than 72o b/c we are more likely to make the best hand, and we can't expect to fold out the blinds every time.
We play Axs b/c it is slightly better than Axo
We play PP b/c they are often the best hand to start and flopping a set will almost ensure they are the best hand.

One more small thing is that having an A in your hand doesn't just mean that you have a strong hand, it means the blinds are slightly less likely to have an A themselves, and therefore be slightly less likely to have a hand they can call a raise with

You are correct in stating many of the points (such as Axs vs Axo) are small differences, but poker is about getting as many small edges as you can.
I remember a high stakes limit player saying he won about 55%. He was rich b/c of that 55/45 edge.

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THANK YOU!!! Great post.

I keep on getting off track in this thread, so I'll try to rephrase my original question by addressing some good points that this post brought up.

My basic point is this: Axs is most valuable when it's in a multiway pot. This is because (like all drawing hands) it usually misses, but when it hits, it is so powerful that the number of opponents it's againist doesn't matter as much. The nuts will beat 10 limpers just as easily as it will beat 1 person heads up.

This is why it's usually best to limp with drawing hands. You want as many opponents as possible so that you are getting equity on a low percentage investment that pays off rarely, but very well when it does.

The whole point of my thread originally was this: When you play Axs heads-up, you are basically turning it into Axo. Yes, it still might make a good draw, but because you are heads-up, now you have to begin thinking about playing it for it's high card value rather than it's drawing power.

In a multiway pot, I have no problem playing A3s and folding againist action if all I flop as an ace.

Heads up, you can't always muck if you flop top pair. Your initial preflop investment makes up too much of the pot to give up so easily.

Yes, it is possible to make a big draw, but the chances that you will make this draw at the same time that the villian will make a hand willing to pay you off are so small, that's not worth considering.

I'm perfectly fine with saying that's okay to steal with Axs, but not because of the nut flush draw. in a heads-up pot, the difference between Axs and Axo is almost nothing.

If we are stealing with Axs, we should probably be stealing with Axo, too.

Does that make more sense?

[Johnes Benjamin]

"I'm perfectly fine with saying that's okay to steal with Axs, but not because of the nut flush draw. in a heads-up pot, the difference between Axs and Axo is almost nothing.

If we are stealing with Axs, we should probably be stealing with Axo, too."


ok, here goes.
I guess the short answer would be: yes, we should steal with both of these hands.
You are totally right on with the point about and drawing hands playing well multiway.
The reason we play Ax late, suited or not, is to steal. when we get called, we have position with a decent hand.

"Yes, it is possible to make a big draw, but the chances that you will make this draw at the same time that the villian will make a hand willing to pay you off are so small, that's not worth considering."
Part of playing well in pos is playing agg and putting a lot of pressure on opponent.
out of all possible combinations of hands, you are right to say the chances of this situation occurring are small.
However, having outs when you do walk into a big hand is huge.

I played a hand today where i was BTN vs BB. I applied a lot of pressure, as I usually do, b/c, quite simply, people will usually give up. That is a big secret to poker I'm giving you right there LOL!
Im sort of exaggerating, I also had a strong pair that figured to be good a lot of the time anyway. I also had a flush draw to go with my pair. I got a raise from BB, but I knew he was capable of doing this with a hand weaker than mine, as people make moves in these situations. I shoved thinking my hand was good a lot, and if it isn't I have outs.
Most of the time my opponent would have folded, but this time he had a set. Hmm, I believe I am pontificating
needlessly; I hit a flush on river.

point is we need to apply pressure and flush draws help us win 1/3 of the time even when we step in [censored].
but yeah, raise with ax and tons of other crap in LP anyway.

also, i'd like to add i am just trying to explain my thinking, I hope i haven't come off like someone who thinks he knows everything b/c I [censored] play NL50

[VegasRunner]

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I applied a lot of pressure, as I usually do, b/c, quite simply, people will usually give up. That is a big secret to poker I'm giving you right there LOL!

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Thank you for the sage advice.

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Im sort of exaggerating, I also had a strong pair that figured to be good a lot of the time anyway. I also had a flush draw to go with my pair. I got a raise from BB, but I knew he was capable of doing this with a hand weaker than mine, as people make moves in these situations. I shoved thinking my hand was good a lot, and if it isn't I have outs.
Most of the time my opponent would have folded, but this time he had a set. Hmm, I believe I am pontificating
needlessly; I hit a flush on river.

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No offense, but this kind of pointing to one example of a thing that happened to you one time is the kind of thing that got us off on the set tangent.

I have no problem with playing a flush draw fast. I agreed, but this has nothing to do with the topic because playing Axs specifically for the nut draw and stealing with Axs are two completely seperate things imo.

Let's look back at pocket pairs for a minute. When we raise heads up with a small pocket pair, we aren't looking to set mine. It might happen, but our goal should be to fire out hard and hope that our villian doesn't have top pair. Anyone who is giving up after missing their set on a steal attempt has absolutely no business trying to steal with a small pocket pair because they clearly have no idea what they are doing.

Same applies for Axs. Yes, we might hit the flush draw, but we can't just give up the 90% if the time when we don't. The flush potiential is a minor added bonus, but because it's only coming a little more than 10% of the time, it's clearly not the reason we are stealing with this hand.

90% of the times we don't flop a flush draw and so 90% of the time, Axs and Axo are exactly the same hand. (First person who starts bringing up something as unlikely as back-door flush potiental is getting a f-ing beatdown.)

I refuse to believe that the 10% of the time that Axs flops a flush draw is significant enough to make Axs a better hand to steal with than Axo.

Got it?

[Johnes Benjamin]

Well, it is obviously slightly better.
Whether it is better or not is irrelevant though, because we should

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raise with ax and tons of other crap in LP anyway.


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[holdem2000]

Let's say that you only showdown and have a flush with Axs 1% of all hands you steal with it... How big is the average pot you take down in this spot? 40 BBs? That's giving Axs an EV .4 BBs higher than Axo. That can be pretty significant when you're contemplating making a steal for about 4 BBs.

[five4suited]

Axo isn't as good as Axs. That's why I don't steal with it. In the long run, that extra expectation is crucial.

[five4suited]

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Well, it is obviously slightly better.
Whether it is better or not is irrelevant though, because we should

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raise with ax and tons of other crap in LP anyway.


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no, you shouldn't