"What decision do I make now?" : Math will not get you there

[Utah]

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I am burning with curiosity about how you train a neural net without feeding it historical information, though.

[/ QUOTE ]You cant. One of the biggest problems with nets is that you often need lots of data. What makes you think that we dont train it with historical data? What if we have all the data or can get all the data from every hand played online at any site. What if we could train the nets in realtime and what if we could run those nets in realtime firing at the rate of 65,000 nets in 1/500 of a second. That would make the software slightly more powerful than pokertracker [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[toms2866]

The AI approach is extremely interesting. How would you compare your approach to Poki? Specialized math-based bots like Vexbot have proven to be extremely good hu - are you focusing on fr, sh, sng, multi-table tourneys? Limit, pl or nl?

[gutte169]

This sounds like silly sematic stuff. Neural nets, AI, genetic programming, etc...they are usually referred to as a branch of computer science or mathematics. What they really are is just game theory and logic. You have information, you weigh your alternatives, and you select the best decision. Your brain does this while you play, and it can definetly be done by a computer program. It should be clear that software is able to win, and will become even more so in the coming years. Maybe I'm missing what is 'new' here.

[Utah]

I remember being very scared by Poki when we were first raising funds as there was no reason to build something if it has already been built. Since we were backed by very serious money we even thought of trying to buy them, partner with them, or license from them.

However, after further analysis it became apparent that Poki suffers from 2 huge design flaws/limitations (cant say what they are). I was sure we could build something better so we simply decided to ignore them and move on. I am sure Poki is very good. However, I am sure that if you put Poki vs us against unsuspecting players we would seriously outperform them.

I know nothing of vexbot. Also, we are not a bot. We went down that path at one point and we have the schematics to build it. However, we wanted to create something commerically available and we didnt want to cross ethical lines.

The problem is that what we have now is way to powerful for public sale. So, we are a bit stuck at the moment. We might dumb it down significantly as to make it acceptable to the poker community - but of course that isnt very fun to do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[LuckyTxGuy]

Thanks for the info. I guess there is one thing that sort of leaves me puzzled...ok it all leaves me puzzled.lol But if this application is as phenomenal as it sounds, what happens if a full table of players are using it at the same time? There is only one winner in every hand. If everyone at a table was using it, would it then negate it's usefullness? (If that makes sense)

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
This sounds like silly sematic stuff. Neural nets, AI, genetic programming, etc...they are usually referred to as a branch of computer science or mathematics. What they really are is just game theory and logic. You have information, you weigh your alternatives, and you select the best decision. Your brain does this while you play, and it can definetly be done by a computer program. It should be clear that software is able to win, and will become even more so in the coming years. Maybe I'm missing what is 'new' here.

[/ QUOTE ]The original question was around objective measurements of performance. I essentially argued that they were worthless because they cant be measured effectively and even if they could they dont help you make decisions. Someone brought up pokertracker as a tool that helps you with objective measurements to help your game. I argued that it doesnt and that I built something else percisely for that reason. Then the conversation kind of imploded [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Andrew Prock]

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It is a silly question of semantics. Please feel free to think of it as math if you prefer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that makes this thread rather silly then. Just because you don't want to admit that artificial intelligence is applied mathematics, that doesn't make it so.

Have fun with your software. Does it violate the T&C of any major cardrooms?

- Andrew

[toms2866]

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I know nothing of vexbot

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Vexbot and Sparbot are packaged with Poki in Poker Academy.

[Siegmund]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am burning with curiosity about how you train a neural net without feeding it historical information, though.

[/ QUOTE ]You cant. One of the biggest problems with nets is that you often need lots of data. What makes you think that we dont train it with historical data?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was quite sure you did. I was being a smartass - in reference to the comment that "you don't care about historical win/loss" when, in a sense, that is the ONLY thing a neural net cares about, since the network learns by strengthening the connections that lead to winning predictions and weakening the ones that lead to losing ones. (If you watched many tables, extending the idea of "winning" to be correctly guessing what should have been done at tables you only observed.)

Anyway, will be interested to see what comes of it, as well as interested in the more general question of whether a neural network method will outperform other methods attacking poker problems.

[Cyrus]

Utah: [ QUOTE ]
One of the biggest problems with nets is that you often need lots of data. What makes you think that we dont train it with historical data?

[/ QUOTE ]
Andrew Prock :[ QUOTE ]
I guess that makes this thread rather silly then.

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