interesting + complicated 20/40 hand, and is this collusion ?

[celiholic]

decent game at canada, i was taking shot @ the 20/40 since the 10/20 at that time is pretty tight

mp - solid preflop raise, looose cold callings with suited junks, able to fold hands when hes beat
co - hero, image tight/solid nothing out of line during this game, losing + card dead + RIVER
sb - hyper aggressive no fear style regular, like to cr draws @ flop/turn to push people out, good at hand reading skill. he respect my play alot, altho i m just a 10/20 regular.
bb - crazy asian lady, call any amount of bet pf with suited con, shes has been running good and hitting everything, usually she bet/c'r ing mean she hav a good hand, will cold call alot with weak draws

mp opens in mp after thinking a sec while he look @ his hole card
hero @co auto 3 bet with a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (i thought mp was weak cos he thought for a sec)
sb auto cap (he could have wide range of hands)
bb completes

flop: a[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

mp bets, hero raise, sb and bb cold 2 bet, mp 3bet, i cap try to isolated to sb/bb, but they call 2 more cold.

at this point i knew i was behind to mp's ak(my guess), and i think sb/bb was trying to look for some backdoor weak draws, since sb will jam the pot if he hav a decent draw, and bb will call any bet to peal one off

turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

mp check, i bet, sb raise, bb coldcalls, mp thought for 1 min and finally decide to fold, i call

i knew i was behind mp'ak but he is obviously scare of the flush out there, and i thought there is a decent chance that sb pickup a pair with str draw + small club, and i knew sb knew mp had ak + i had weak ace, and he might raise to push mp or maybe me off(for sure tho he don't except me to fold)
so i bet to induce a raise from sb to push out the mp's ak(no club, since i had the a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) bad news is bb coldcall 2 bet and i can't even put her on a hand that why i didn't 3 bet it to max from sb weak draw and thought i was behind to some kind of weird 2 pair from bb, and looking for the redraw. bb coldcall 2 bet made me step back from 3beting that turn

river: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

sb bet out, bb call, i call

ok, i m like fcuuk ! bad river ! sb must complete some kind of weird funky str/2pair, but the pot is like huge and there is still a decent sb is bluffing, and bb calling with anything so i made a crying call.

@showdown everyone show their hands and ..
sb - pocket 77(1 club)
bb - pocket qq(1 club)
mp said he had ak which is pretty transparent tho

after you see all the hand with the completed info, i should've 3 bet turn to push sb out, and win the pot ! bb fcuks me up bad

and...

i didn't pissed @ all about the huge river suck out ! cos all my instinct was right, and i knew somehow sb was helping me in the hand

mp said "what the .. i had ak and i fold the turn" he wasn't that pissed coz he would hav lost the hand anyway and save 120 bucks

sb said "sorry kid ! i gotta bet that, i pay/donate 80 to protect your hand, i dont want to see you lose too ! but you know ! i donated 80, i had to bet it ! "

hero said "i know i know.. i knew it.. i knew you were helping me somehow to push him(mp)off ... blah blah blah"

comments at all streets are welcome

and is this really collusion in somehow ? i only play with sb like 2/3 time @ 10/20 which he is on the list !
but its like a soulmate that i knew how he play and he knew how i play ...

thanks for the input !!!

[Barry]

Let's see, did you get 1 street right?

PF- Solid opens in MP, fold PF
Flop - Solid 3 bets your raise, fold
Turn - You're behind to MP, 1 of the cold callers is likely to have a flush and is looking to c/r and you pick up the nut draw, check behind. Why pay 2 bets when you know you're drawing?

River - Against most folks this is an easy fold, but if you say they are crazy I won't argue too much about calling.

Let's call it 3 1/2 streets wrong.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]


Let's call it 3 1/2 streets wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

[celiholic]

i guess you are a typical online tag, btw this is live game

pf: possible hands mp opens with (7 to 10s pocket, qjs, kq, ak, aq, aj, a10), 3 bet to isolated dangerous argo sb and expect a call from bb ? if mp auto raise, i'll fold !

flop: 4 way cap, atleast 10bb+ @ the pot, and you will fold for tpdk/backdoor nut flush draw for .5bb bet ? um...

turn: i know i am behind mp but ahead of sb, that why i bet to induce a raise from sb to push bb + mp off ! its like we are partners, if he had a pair + str draw + low club, i m sure he will raise to push out some higher club from bb ! if i bet, sb 2b, bb 3b,and i know bb and mp won't 3b or 4b without a flush, i'll call and fold to river unimproved

btw, this is a live game at casino ! anything is possible ! bingo !!! look @ the showdown hands do you expect they have 77 and qq ? umm...

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
decent game at canada, i was taking shot @ the 20/40 since the 10/20 at that time is pretty tight

mp - solid preflop raise, looose cold callings with suited junks, able to fold hands when hes beat
co - hero, image tight/solid nothing out of line during this game, losing + card dead + RIVER
sb - hyper aggressive no fear style regular, like to cr draws @ flop/turn to push people out, good at hand reading skill. he respect my play alot, altho i m just a 10/20 regular.
bb - crazy asian lady, call any amount of bet pf with suited con, shes has been running good and hitting everything, usually she bet/c'r ing mean she hav a good hand, will cold call alot with weak draws

mp opens in mp after thinking a sec while he look @ his hole card
hero @co auto 3 bet with a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (i thought mp was weak cos he thought for a sec)
sb auto cap (he could have wide range of hands)
bb completes

flop: a[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

mp bets, hero raise, sb and bb cold 2 bet, mp 3bet, i cap try to isolated to sb/bb, but they call 2 more cold.

at this point i knew i was behind to mp's ak(my guess), and i think sb/bb was trying to look for some backdoor weak draws, since sb will jam the pot if he hav a decent draw, and bb will call any bet to peal one off

turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

mp check, i bet, sb raise, bb coldcalls, mp thought for 1 min and finally decide to fold, i call

i knew i was behind mp'ak but he is obviously scare of the flush out there, and i thought there is a decent chance that sb pickup a pair with str draw + small club, and i knew sb knew mp had ak + i had weak ace, and he might raise to push mp or maybe me off(for sure tho he don't except me to fold)
so i bet to induce a raise from sb to push out the mp's ak(no club, since i had the a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) bad news is bb coldcall 2 bet and i can't even put her on a hand that why i didn't 3 bet it to max from sb weak draw and thought i was behind to some kind of weird 2 pair from bb, and looking for the redraw. bb coldcall 2 bet made me step back from 3beting that turn

river: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

sb bet out, bb call, i call

ok, i m like fcuuk ! bad river ! sb must complete some kind of weird funky str/2pair, but the pot is like huge and there is still a decent sb is bluffing, and bb calling with anything so i made a crying call.

@showdown everyone show their hands and ..
sb - pocket 77(1 club)
bb - pocket qq(1 club)
mp said he had ak which is pretty transparent tho

after you see all the hand with the completed info, i should've 3 bet turn to push sb out, and win the pot ! bb fcuks me up bad

and...

i didn't pissed @ all about the huge river suck out ! cos all my instinct was right, and i knew somehow sb was helping me in the hand

mp said "what the .. i had ak and i fold the turn" he wasn't that pissed coz he would hav lost the hand anyway and save 120 bucks

sb said "sorry kid ! i gotta bet that, i pay/donate 80 to protect your hand, i dont want to see you lose too ! but you know ! i donated 80, i had to bet it ! "

hero said "i know i know.. i knew it.. i knew you were helping me somehow to push him(mp)off ... blah blah blah"

comments at all streets are welcome

and is this really collusion in somehow ? i only play with sb like 2/3 time @ 10/20 which he is on the list !
but its like a soulmate that i knew how he play and he knew how i play ...

thanks for the input !!!

[/ QUOTE ]

If the BB had folded on the river I might have had to make the call here, like you did. But he did the dirty work. You don't have to.

[Barry]

[ QUOTE ]
i guess you are a typical online tag, btw this is live game

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I think that I have played enough live. It's more so live than it is online.

[andyfox]

Once MP 3-bet the flop, I agree with you that you should have known you were behind. "No fear style" and "crazy" players are unlikely to fold for two more bets once they have already put two in on a small-bet street. Thus I would just have called the turn 3-bet, especially since the likely turn bettor would be MP and that would leave me the option of raising the turn to try to shut out the blinds.

I wouldn't have let the big blind's call turn change my plan. Even if big blind made "some kind of weird 2 pair"--and she sure isn't playing "crazy" this hand, so I don't see why one would think she improved on the turn; her play seems ultra-defensive here--you're drawing to the nuts and have other outs against two pair. Anyway, given your description of the small blind, and seeing his play this hand, I'm not as certain as you are that he'd give up on the turn for one more bet.

Bottom line is that playing A-J offsuit against a solid MP raiser in a game like this is a mistake. I'm a live player and Barry is a very tough live player.

[Barry]

Hey Andy -

You ever make it to Commerce anymore? I haven't seen you the last couple of times I've been there. Gabe, Joker and I have been holding down the fort.

[andyfox]

I was there today. Ask Surfdoc about the hand he sweated me or Gabe about the half hour he sat behind me.

Best regards,
Andy

[celiholic]

ok... its a crazy game, would you guys expect qq and 77 from sb, bb after 4bet flop, 2bet turn, and showdown ??

if i take the free card, the only chance i m going to win the pot is improve to 2pair/flush, and sb will bet out, bb overcall, and mp overcall so i can fold. if all 3 players were normally rational tag/passive, 100% i'll check the turn. obviously if mp bet out again on turn, i m jus gonna call since i knew its pointless anyway

i was really wondering if anyone would play like i did cos your gut feeling telling you that there is 60% sb will raise to push ppl out, and mp have like 30-50% folding ak in 3 flush borad @ turn to a 2 bet cold ! and seriously, i didn't really put bb in to the equation since she can have anything, since she is a calling station esp in big pot !

beside the preflop mistake which i must agree, since hes not a regular so ... anyways, i build the pot @flop, push out the best hand with the 2nd best hand + best draw on turn, and a major suck out at the river