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#51
08-19-2007, 05:40 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
Is this a good spot vs a 30/20ish villain? River should be a bet I think.
Full Tilt Poker Limit Holdem Ring game Limit: $2/$4 6 players Converter Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls. Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players) BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls. Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls. River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players) BB checks, Hero checks. Results: Final pot: 8.25BB 
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#52
08-19-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
Board is very connected and there is a lot of draws that will peel.
That said with the double gutter I think its a profitable semi bluff spot but you need to follow through on the river IMO to fold 98, T9, K9, Q8 and QT since all those hands get odds to peel the turn but might fold river. If you dont think you can fold those hands by following through I dont think you should semi bluff the turn.
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#53
08-19-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] yourface and brassmonkey, you guys are totally misapplying the concept. the board has to get scary for YOU, not him. [/ QUOTE ] an A is supposed to be scary for me no? perhaps it would have been better to make this play without 2 broadways on the board. [ QUOTE ] And even then the point is to call him down with the stuff you have, not give him a chance to make a heroic rebluff. [/ QUOTE ] how so? he defines his hand pretty strongly with a 3bet imo and I don't have the odds to justify peeling to 4 outs. I suppose a heroic rebluff is possible, but it will be a long term money loser in this spot as I will usually have a hand that I am showing down (Ax most likely) [/ QUOTE ] yeah, i misread your hand, sorry.
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#54
08-19-2007, 06:44 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
[ QUOTE ]
yourface that is a great example of the idea. he bets his whole range on that turn card. you really want Kx to fold here too because of how many chopping outs it has and the fact that nothing good can happen from keeping it in. there is also a nonzero chance he finds a fold with pocket pairs < qq. brassmonkey posted a good hand, too, but he didn't know why. he thought it was an example of the ideas in the original post from his point of view, but it's actually a great example of it from his opponent's point of view. in bb's spot. brass's range is very wide here. the usual line for bb with, say, 5h4h would be to bet/call the turn (believing that sb probably hit the K). but, that K is the perfect card for SB to try to scare BB. now if BB knows and expects this, he can bet/3-bet 5h4h. [/ QUOTE ] This is actually an excellent point and one I totally missed. Brassmonkeys hand is a PERFECT example of what im talking about if your in SB's shoes.. good eye I also think I didnt give yourfaces hand enough credit when I went over it.. Make the 4 a 2 and take away the flush draw and you have a perfect spot.
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#55
08-19-2007, 09:18 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
This thread was fun to read. Keep having random insights Heisen.
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#56
08-19-2007, 09:56 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a good spot vs a 30/20ish villain? River should be a bet I think. Full Tilt Poker Limit Holdem Ring game Limit: $2/$4 6 players Converter Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls. Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players) BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls. Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls. River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players) BB checks, Hero checks. Results: Final pot: 8.25BB [/ QUOTE ] This is one of those reverse hands like brassmonkey's. I agree with you about the river being a must-bet since he has a pair < Aces + draw a ton here. But the more I think about it, I think you should just call--too many combos can easily 3-bet you here and very few manage to fold before the river (and we all know how hard it is to get people to fold pairs on the river).
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#57
08-19-2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Is this a good spot vs a 30/20ish villain? River should be a bet I think. Full Tilt Poker Limit Holdem Ring game Limit: $2/$4 6 players Converter Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls. Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players) BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero calls. Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls. River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players) BB checks, Hero checks. Results: Final pot: 8.25BB [/ QUOTE ] This is one of those reverse hands like brassmonkey's. I agree with you about the river being a must-bet since he has a pair < Aces + draw a ton here. But the more I think about it, I think you should just call--too many combos can easily 3-bet you here and very few manage to fold before the river (and we all know how hard it is to get people to fold pairs on the river). [/ QUOTE ] I agree that the strategic choice is between raising the turn and bluffing the river or calling the turn and folding the river UI. I'll admit that in this very spot I usually raise the turn and bet the river, but that doesnt mean its right.
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#58
08-19-2007, 11:39 PM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
Really? I like never bluff raise on those type boards.. I have more than enough pairs to showdown, so it's not like im really bluffable on this boad.. Also the probability your opponent is not bluffing and the opponent hit a pair or better is just so high...
If im going to bluff raise this turn its with Like K7/Q7/K9 of clubs or something cause you are getting trey bet ALOT.. Hell im not even comfortable just raising a pair of aces on this turn really... (I would of course do so). I pretty much never bluff on AKQ or really connected boards... Because people dont adjust their showdown tendencies relative to the board enough.. It's more "I have pair, therefore I can showdown" type thinking.. While it should probabily be " He knows im strong so I doubt hes bluffing here, I can fold my mediocore hands"
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#59
08-20-2007, 12:43 AM
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Re: Strategic thinking against good players
[ QUOTE ]
Because people dont adjust their showdown tendencies relative to the board enough.. [/ QUOTE ] So true. Great way to word a calling station's logic. Also, on connected boards, a lot of players tend to put you on a draw if you raise and are more willing to go to SD with their mediocre hands. Bluffing is very tricky in LHE.
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