decent draw on the flop. what should i do?

[Klak]

pacific poker 1/2 8 handed
stacks:
sb $125
bb $204
KLAK $154
utg+1 $90
utg+2 $214

i am UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

i call, utg+1 calls, utg+2 raises to $12, folds to sb, sb calls, bb calls, klak calls, utg+1 calls

flop$52.25)
Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

both blinds check, what should i do?

i figure i either bet the pot or check and see how much the preflop raiser bets.

[BluffTHIS!]

Bet the pot. The raiser might not bet since he might have junky sidecards with AA and no draw or something else. If you get raised/checkraised you have pot odds to call for the rest of your stack. And if you get raised by QT then you have more outs as another deuce would likely be a winner for you, not to mention a backdoor wheel.

[wazz]

Your hand is a little weak to be calling with UTG.

What makes you (bluff) think the preflop raiser has AA?

[BluffTHIS!]

wazz,

When I said "or something else" I should have been more clear to indicate that I meant or some other hand that didn't necessarily hit the flop good as well as AA for villain's possible hand.

[CallYNotRaise06]

i agree w/ bluff's line

[Voj]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree w/ bluff's line

[/ QUOTE ]

[glass_onion]

There are 4 opponents who called a preflop pot raise. Two broadway cards hit. I'm worried about huge draws or set, which is pretty likely, right?

The reason I disagree with your line, Bluff, is that I'm more interested in getting into hands with pot equity, not implied odds. Set is raising, and as you said now I'm calling my whole stack with a flush draw and (shared) inside st8. Check, most likely someone bets and it gets called somewhere before it gets to me. Now i've got equity. If for no other reason, isn't this a way better game plan.

Seems like you want to play a medium-omaha-draw like this against many opponents, not one opponent for all your chips.
I also like to wait to make sure the board doesn't pair.

Tell me I'm missing somehting big here . . .

[BluffTHIS!]

onion,

I don't play as many hands as most in this forum in a plo game, but I do play them aggressively, though not heedlessly so. Sure one of the 2 checkers might be waiting to either checkraise or just call with a mediocre made hand better than a pair of deuces. And sure the preflop raiser might be willing to play as well. But the pot on the flop is 1/3 of hero's remaining stack and is worth taking a reasonable shot at with a hand that has a lot of outs, though not an equity crushing number of same if it gets played with. So when 2 people check, and the original raiser doesn't have to like that flop, I am going to take a stab at it and take my chances. If you get raised then so what? The only way you will ever get action on sets and monster draws that crush other draws is if you play some weaker but still decent draws fast occasionally. And if you let it get checked around and someone picks up another draw on the turn for free or spikes a set, then you will have forfeited any chance most likely of taking it down a reasonable pot with a bet.

[Klak]

Bluff, i completly agree with you. i have to take some pots down on the flop and i cant just bet when i have the nuts because people will catch on. heres what happend, i bet the pot, utg+1 shoves for 90 (about 40 more than i bet) utg+2 calls, i call. turn is another 10, i check and utg+2 shoves. i have to fold. thanks for responces!

oh and utg+1 had J9 with spades and utg+2 had QQ.

[jocelyn85]

Sorry to open this up again, but this is my first post on 2+2!

I'm not sure I agree with the pot bet on the flop. For a start, I'm not convinced with the call pre-flop. It is a weak holding and with that kind of hand, you will be pretty much chasing throughout the pot. The flop is kind, the gutshot gives you added value from an otherwise sole flush draw which has little implied odds.

Anyhow, pre-flop aside, what you need to consider is whether the pre-flop raiser is likely to continuation bet. If he has a high propensity to do so, I don't see why you need to bet out here. If you want to follow the line of betting, why not bet half-pot. That way you have more control over the pot size. Anyhow, Checking on the flop allows you to assess your position:

- if the pre-flop raiser bets pot. With one of the blinds calling, you easily have odds to continue

- if both blinds fold, I would let it go. A set has many killer outs and you need about 17-18 to be a coin-flip (of which you only have 12). This is all assuming he has not a single blocker too. At best you are 2-1 on the flop (odds which you are receiving with a pot bet), but that is the absolute optimum situation. Surely that's not a +ev situation to be in and thus you can not call.