Discussion about "the big blind steal"

[Potte]

There has been a lot of discussion about what kind of stack you want, stealranges, callingranges and so on regarding the restealsituation. Is there a similar thread about "the big blind steal" for shortstacks. That is, when you are the bb and you get a number of limpers and you are considering pushing two cards because you think have enough FE to make everyone fold? If not, maybe the pokergeniuses on this forum could start such a discussion...? The restealthreads have been really valuable for my play and I think a similar thread on this particular subject would be valuable for everyone reading it.

[Foucault]

There are four factors to consider:

1. Your stack size
2. Size of the pot
3. Calling ranges
4. Your cards

1. This is how much you are risking. There might be some circumstances where you are auto-pushing here because the blinds are about to go up or something, but usually you need to think about the other two factors to determine how large of a stack you can risk on this move.

2. Larger blinds relative to the average stack and a greater number of limpers makes you more inclined to steal, but also means you are more likely to get looked up. You have to consider how likely you are to win it outright (fold equity) plus your equity versus opponents' calling ranges.

3. You have to think about how likely you are to get called. Are any of the players especially loose? How many of them are clever enough to realize you will be making a move a good portion of the time when you push (it may be more than you think, this is a pretty obvious play)? Pay particular attention to the first and last players to limp. The first is likely to have the best hand, since people often limp big pairs in early position but almost never overlimp them. The last can call with the widest range because he will not feel any 'squeeze effect' from the danger of players behind him overcalling with better hands than his. In my experience, the last limper will almost always call if no one else does and he is getting 2:1. That doesn't mean you can't shove, you just need to have at least 33% equity against his range, which you almost always will.

4. Your cards. Obviously, these determine your equity when called. Less obviously, they also influence whether or not you want to see the flop in a multiway pot. In a situation where you will almost certainly get called, you have to decide whether you want to get it heads up pre-flop or whether you will gain valuable information from seeing the flop. If you have a pocket pair or two big cards, you're probably better off pushing pre-flop and getting it heads up with dead money in the pot. With a hand like 98s, you can consider taking a look at the flop and then shoving any pair/any draw or check-folding if the board is bad for you. Just because pushing pre-flop is +EV doesn't mean it is more +EV than pushing post-flop.

[A_PLUS]

It is called 'pwning limpers', not a big blind steal. I do it, a lot. I find it best after a significant blind increase (like the 50/100 -> 100/200 on party).

A typical play looks like this for me

UG+1 (3900): limps
MP (4100): calls
CO (3500): calls
SB (4800) calls
Hero (3100): pushes

I will do this with pretty much any 2 cards, but I try to avoid weak AX hands, b/c I have been looked up by A9-AJ more often than any other range of hands.

Also, I run crazy crazy crazy good when I get called. I am definitely running at a 80+% win rate, and dont remember ever having the best hand. (Including a quadrouple up with 72s)

[Potte]

thanks for very good answers.

Foucault: Another thing to consider is what the stacksizes of the limpers are, if we can hurt them all badly we should be more inclined to push since they'll be less likely to call in that case (this prob goes under factor 3).

A_PLUS: pushing with the 3k stack in your example is +EV even if you are called 50% of the time and you are a 2:1 dog when this happens. Hence, laying 3:1 odds on your push looks profitable. What I'm trying to figure out is if we can come up with a rule of thumb for when this play is +EV and when not. Obviously it's not enough looking at the risk/return ratio since more limpers makes a call more likely (Foucaults 2nd factor) plus we need to consider who the limpers are (3rd factor) and our cards (4th factor).

The decision obv is more complex than the resteal because of multiple opponenents and their different stacksizes. Still, I'm thinking there should be some sort of "sweet spot" where pwning limpers is the perfect move. Anyone have an idea of how often a push is called depending on number of players? What are typical calling-ranges? I can't say that I'm experienced enough to answer these questions and therefore I'm hoping that someone can fill in the blanks in this equation...