(555) Time to fold a +$EV spot again (?)

[Slim Pickens]

This push looks a lot better than this one, where most people didn't want to fold anything in from the small blind with a big stack on the bubble.


$EV difference for pushing over folding 32o in this hand. It's harder to decide on a calling range but unless BB is good and knows you are too, it won't be very wide.


Here's the plot from the other hand, which is a 6-max where the 30 BB stack pushes into a 10 BB stack with a 2.5 BB stack already having folded the button.


I contend that if there's ever a place to skip a push, it's one where you as the big stack have the most control over the table. With two opponents and your big stack to shelter shorty, I think the 6-max situation from the other thread gives you more control over the bubble than the 9-max situation with three opponents and no short stacks.

[AMT]

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BB isn't a pro but seems to play pretty well.

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Sounds like ATC to me....

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It's +ev to shove ATC here, the question is about if we should pass up our thinnest edges with the bottom of our range so that we can

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When slim said "isn't a pro but seems to play pretty well." That's the best case you could ask for, predictable behavior and won't think outside the box, most likely is calling range is going to be uber tight in these spots, so no I'm not passing up on "x" now to receive "y" later..

Against a "pro" or an idiot I might think differently of it, but even with that based on Citanul post, thinking twice about it would be a mistake.

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This makes no sense, its been established that pushing is +ev, its not going to make a difference if its bigjoe or the described villain, a better player cant just fabricate a calling range that suddenly becomes good, we're talking about folding a pretty thin edge here if we're folding only our worst hands, It has to be good to fold some hands here.

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i see what you and everyone else are pointing to, and I tend to agree that folding out the bottom is good, but the fact remains that the incremental edge gained is going to be so incredibly close here that I don't know how we can conclude on the exact part of the bottom of our range to fold short of coming up with a magical exact calling range for villain and call frequencies for UTG et al as citanul pointed to.

i guess im trying to say that i dont think anyone can fully refute someone saying to fold bottom 5% vs. bottom 15%, but I think we can conclude on slim's original question, which conclusively is that its unlikely that passing up on *some* hands here in a seemingly ATC spot is going to be worse than shoving ATC (again, assuming youre not folding too much). hope this makes sense, i just bought a volcano.

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Enjoy it man, they're a lot of fun. Best way to smoke...and it's not even close.

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agreed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[durron597]

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I contend that if there's ever a place to skip a push, it's one where you as the big stack have the most control over the table. With two opponents and your big stack to shelter shorty, I think the 6-max situation from the other thread gives you more control over the bubble than the 9-max situation with three opponents and no short stacks.

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those graphs are misleading because bb's call range is guaranteed to be much smaller in the linked hand than this hand

[Slim Pickens]

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I contend that if there's ever a place to skip a push, it's one where you as the big stack have the most control over the table. With two opponents and your big stack to shelter shorty, I think the 6-max situation from the other thread gives you more control over the bubble than the 9-max situation with three opponents and no short stacks.

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those graphs are misleading because bb's call range is guaranteed to be much smaller in the linked hand than this hand

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His calling range will be much smaller, but the 5% call $EV value from the 6-max hand is about the same as the 30% call value in this hand.