Honor Systems

[eviljeff]

banging strangers is a huge honor system

[TiK]

I experienced that sort of system recently in San Jose with their streetcars. My girlfriend rode it for 4 days straight at least twice a day and never got her tickets checked. I rode it a handful of times as well and never had mine checked either. We both bought tickets every time though.

I think a big factor in having something like this work is to have the people who use it be caring enough to feel that their non-compliance will have a negative impact on the system.

[tolbiny]

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There is a relatively famous Honor Code at Princeton University for all papers and exams. There is no policing: no proctors or teachers in the room while taking exams, many exams are take-home (even if they are timed exams and/or closed book - you are on your honor not to take more than the allotted time and not to use prohibited materials).

Once, instead of turning in a final exam, I accidentally put it in my backpack and took it home. The next day, I opened my backpack and, to my surprise, saw the exam there. I immediately wrote to my professor saying what had happened. He told me to bring the exam to his office. I went and he asked me if I had completed it on time without using any books, completely in the manner that was appropriate. I said I had. He made me sign the honor code again in his presence and then took the exam and graded it.

Of course there is cheating at Princeton, but I don't think it's any worse than anywhere else. And the fact that you can take your exams in such freedom and people can assign takehomes and stuff makes everything so much nicer. It's not like a police state and you're not like a prisoner. It's a place to learn and you're a valued student. I think that 99% of the people really value the honor code (even those who might cheat it once or twice) and therefore people don't rampantly cheat because they know that would cause it to go away.

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To be fair though to get into Princeton you have to go through a fairly rigorous selection process. You already have a much higher percentage of intelligent hard working kids who take pride in what they do by the time they get into that school.

[Borodog]

The very first stock market, formed for the trading of shares of the Dutch East India Company, had absolutely no recourse to the Dutch courts to enforce contracts, because the Dutch government viewed the stock market as a form of gambling, and thus immoral and not worthy of government protection of contract.

Nevertheless, even in the complete absence of any enforcement mechanism whatsoever, debts were scrupulously paid, even if the debtor had to sell all his worldly goods and take years to pay off the debts. Anyone who did not want to pay these debts could simply "Appeal to Frederick", and have the debt legally absolved (because the contract was never legal in the first place); but nobody did. The consequences for anyone who did would have been dire indeed, and they came through neither government enforcement nor threat of private violence, but rather purely from economic ostracism. Anyone who did not meet their stock market obligations would be run out of the market as a "lame duck", and no one would extend them "credit" again (not just in the modern sense of credit, but in the original as well, as in "credibility").

The stock market grew and thrived and prospered under this enforcement-free regime for well over 100 years.

Most of the world actually operates on the "honor system". Think of the millions of empty houses across America during the working day. Little prevents burglars from breaking in and looting, and many of course do. But the very fact that this is rare indicates that the vast majority of people would rather spend their time laboring to produce than looting and cheating.

I've given a lot of thought to this topic. I have some other thoughts I think are interesting about con men, the inefficiency of private cheating, and (obviously) institutionalizing cheating (the state).

[TheWorstPlayer]

Interestingly enough, though, that fact doesn't surface along several other dimensions. Princeton kids still get into fights, and steal things from liquor stores, and serve alcohol to minors, and rape other students, and are racist and sexist and all that other stupid stuff kids are/do. I agree with your point, but I think that the way the Honor Code is constructured and that fact that the Honor Code is a long-standing institution at Princeton which is a very important part of the culture really makes a big difference even for kids who normally would not care about an honor system. I guarantee people at Princeton would ride the subway without a ticket just as often as anyone else would, for example.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

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Oh yea, durrrr wanted to know where to pay his $5K HSNL tourney entry. I posted my screen name and said to send it there (despite not being involved in any way) and the next day I had $5K in my account. Easiest scam I ever ran. Yay poker players!

[/ QUOTE ]

you probably needed the money too

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yea, durrrr wanted to know where to pay his $5K HSNL tourney entry. I posted my screen name and said to send it there (despite not being involved in any way) and the next day I had $5K in my account. Easiest scam I ever ran. Yay poker players!

[/ QUOTE ]

you probably needed the money too

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Who doesn't need $5K for 5 seconds of work?

[aufbruch]

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You buy a ticket, you stamp it in the machine (to show when you started your journey) and you get on the train/bus/tram.

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I never knew this the first time I went and just bought a ticket like all other cities I've been to. I was pretty surprised when a German guy (no uniform or anything) came up to the four of us and asked to see our tickets. We showed him and he forced us off at the next stop and charged us 100 euro as a 'deal'. Apparently the stamping of the ticket is the crucial element of the system...

Seemed easy to not only avoid tickets but also to scam money off dumb tourists who didn't know you had to stamp them.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

twp aren't you back to working yet? did you go to princeton? i'm pretty sure your whole first post in this thread was just a brag that you went to princeton, although i did find it very interesting.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Oh please. Everyone knows I went to Princeton, already. Maybe they didn't know I graduated with honors, though?