lol HORSEament (short-stack Stud/8 "push")

[Slim Pickens]

Technically, this is an MTT hand, but an 11-player HORSEament hardly counts as "multi-table." 8 players remain. 4 spots pay 130/180/280/490. I think everything is correct here, but there's only so much information I can absorb and retain for 12 hours, so bear with me.

25/100/400/800 Stud/8

Seat 1: t2000 (xx) ?[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Seat 2: t1000 (xx) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Seat 3: t1500 (xx) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (bring-in)
Hero: t1075 (K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Seat 5: t2500 (xx) ?mid[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Seat 6: t4000 (xx) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Seat 7: t6000 (xx) ?low[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Seat 8: t2500 (xx) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Is this really as easy a fold as it looks? I'm basically flipping with most of the hands that will play with me: good three-card A-small-small hands and the like, which make lows about 1/2 the time. Everyone at the table is fairly short-stacked. I have a decent amount of folding equity, even over 6 people. The only card that's really troubling me is the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the hand of the idiot short stack in Seat 2.

I'm pretty sure calling is bad because I'm not interested in letting marginal low hands pick up a fourth low card for cheap and then be way ahead of me, but can I raise? It's effectively a push with 1 small bet behind.

[RubbishCards]

Is that 400/800 with 25 ante and 100 bring-in? That seems like a really low ante. If this was Stars, the ante would be 80 and bring-in 120 at this level (760 dead money, vs 300 here), and I shove any pair from any position with barely 1BB left. In this structure maybe you can wait for a slightly better spot, if the ante really is that low?

[Slim Pickens]

Good catch. I realized too late I'd screwed that up. The correct level is 50/150/400/800.

[Eagles]

Slim,
I think you would get better advice in the stud forum because most people in STTF have no idea how to play stud.

[skipperbob]

If you want to "learn" how to play Stud-8; read Ray Zee's book...don't necessarily have to play that tight, especially in a MTT, but even considering playing your hand is terrible [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Slim Pickens]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2469199
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 kc jd jc - ad 2d 6d / 3d 4d 5d kd 6h td
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc Jc Jd 154230 363980 136011 9 0 0 0 0.518
Ad 6d 2d 136011 136011 363980 9 257110 0 0 0.482

I thought it was a very simple fold too until I started actually looking up odds. I'm basically coin flipping (even slightly ahead) if I get called by a "good" Stud/8 starting hand. A lot of people have each other's outs and only one of mine is dead. The only thing that really crushes me are pocket aces, since no one is showing one.

Does Zee discuss short-stacked tournament Stud/8 much? It seems most Stud/8 is going to played deep-stacked ring and thus most of the knowledge base will be fitted to that. There's zero implied odds for my opponents catching good on 4th and 5th streets if I'm already all-in.

[RubbishCards]

Yeah, you're a slight favourite over almost any 3 card low including strong 2 way hands like 456. The dead money is more than half of your stack. And if you fold, you are down to 20 antes, and might have to get your money in in a much worse spot than this. And it's not like you can wait for 4 people to go broke so you can sneak into the money.

The thing that sucks about these spots is that people almost NEVER co-operate and put you all in, they really like to keep calling, then catch running AA on 4th and 5th, so you can be completely screwed when the final chip goes in [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[skipperbob]

Hey Slim: My response was way too glib...I would push with your cards/stack/situation.....PS: how do I fund more $$$$ into PokerStars? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[TheNoodleMan]

I get it in here. This is one of the most profitable points of a HORSE sng. People are scared of the stud games and will fold way too much when the bets get huge.

[kevstreet]

I may be waaaay off but I'm taking my chances w/ this hand.