**uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds** - Page 2

BukNaked36 · #11 11-21-2006, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning?
You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right?
I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I'm at. You can't fold an overpair everytime the board pairs or is draw heavy and villian bets into you. For example, I'm betting into your JJ with TT in the above hand, yet JJ is a solid favorite.

eigenvalue · #12 11-21-2006, 12:56 PM

I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.

You don't want to loose much in the RIO situation and I think this kind of bet is the best You can do. If Your opponent is sitting on a draw, he has the pot odds to call or he might reraise. But I don't see a better try for me. If he isn't on a draw, it's not that easy to deal for him with that kind of a bet. Because he can't be sure whether we are on a draw or whether we hit the straight, reraising in this situation isn't that easy for him.
Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold - but sometimes may lead to a cheap showdown, if he calls.

Wolfram · #13 11-21-2006, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculously exploitable. Here's why:
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Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to make meaningful bets or good opponents will catch on and rip you apart. Maybe not at µ-stakes but certainly as you move higher up.

eigenvalue · #14 11-22-2006, 03:49 AM

I don't think so. This advice comes from an internet pro, who has lots of success. No one rips him apart. By the way, it's easy to criticize someones suggestions without referring to Kazanas question! You leave her question unanswered!

We are in a RIO situation. Pumping up the pot seems to be a mistake, checking and doing nothing seems bad, too, as Kazana stated in her post. So I think the only option You have is bet a little.

kerplunkNL · #15 11-22-2006, 06:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. This advice comes from an internet pro, who has lots of success. No one rips him apart. By the way, it's easy to criticize someones suggestions without referring to Kazanas question! You leave her question unanswered!

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I don't have any suggestions. I suck at detecting ROI situations. But I'd like to comment on this.

An internet pro (hopefully) knows what he's doing. He has prob awesome reading skills and his postflopplay is much much better than the average SSNL-2+2er. You can't just implement such advice from a pro. I am sure he mixes it up: sometimes he does this when he as a monsters, sometimes in a ROI situation, sometimes as a bluff. If you bet 1/3-1/4 pot and than ALWAYS fold to a reraise on the flop, that's bad and highly exploitable.

I think you have to check these flops a majority of the time and fold to a bet. If you also check flops you do hit, you are less readable.

munkey · #16 11-22-2006, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning?
You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right?
I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I'm at. You can't fold an overpair everytime the board pairs or is draw heavy and villian bets into you. For example, I'm betting into your JJ with TT in the above hand, yet JJ is a solid favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. -these are tricky marginal situations for sure -as long as we keep them marginal and don't put too much monies in then they shouldn't affect our winrate much.

I think this comes down to knowing your villan and handreading erring on the side of folding vs. unknowns/when unsure.
As long as we don't put too much money in the pot then we should be able to charge drawers /weaker hands and only lose some when we're behind.

The JJ hand I cbet OOP then shutdown, in positon I'll check not worring about a free card or bet the turn if I suspect villan is drawing. I did this yesterday -river completed a str8 villan bet the river and I folded knowing I he likely hit as he check-called on teh flop &turn.

I didn't payoff his river bet and he flashed the str8.

If bet into on drawy board by bluffers/drawers I often raise IP if they reraise I obv fold but if they call they are often drawing/weak overpair esp. if they lead turn weak. I often call the turn weak lead and let them bluff a blank river. Note this applies HU -multiway I'm likely folding.

Just some rambling thoughts. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Anyone else got advice/thoughts on these tricky situations?

eigenvalue · #17 11-22-2006, 10:28 AM

Did I ever mention that You ALWAYS should fold in that situation? This was never part of my post!

The question kazana asked here was what's the standard line of proceeding in this situation. If someone starts to exploit Your standard line, whatever it is, You have to adjust, but that's not part of this topic.

And, I wouldn't make suggestions without making my own - good - experiences with them at these stakes. I feel very, very comfortable in betting a little in these situations. Let someone like You start to play back at me. That's fine, that happens a lot and it's a great situation to set up a trap in the medium/long run!

This is one of my major sources of revenue. Someone like You sitting at the table, watching my occassional undersized bets, thinking I'm weak tight and thinking it will be easy to run over the top of me, because I will fold to the reraise ALWAYS.

Can it get any better for me? I guess, no!

Supwithbates · #18 11-22-2006, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculously exploitable. Here's why:
[ QUOTE ]
Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to make meaningful bets or good opponents will catch on and rip you apart. Maybe not at µ-stakes but certainly as you move higher up.

[/ QUOTE ]
i play microstakes and if someone bet 1/4 pot into me I would probably raise any overpair

darth.bilbo · #19 11-22-2006, 11:47 AM

This is a great thread. Thanks! I now realize that I see these situations all the time and just didn't quite know what to call them.

Now that several people have asked the question "so what do we do about RIO?", maybe we can investigate what EMc originally asked for:

[ QUOTE ]
situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm beginning to see examples of RIO as they develop, but i'm not sure how we can apply RIO effectively/poorly other than a simple understanding of lose big / win little.

Additionally, how far does the concept of 'Make you opponent make a mistake' go here.....i.e. on the JJ overpair example if we make bets that DON'T give villian odds to draw to the flush (even though we suspect he'll call anyway) are we doing enough?

thoughts?

gir · #20 11-22-2006, 09:49 PM

When does it switch from being Reverse Implied Odds to implied odds?

How would I play this hand differently with QQ, JJ, TT, 99?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($5)
Hero ($41.60)
SB ($26.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero raises to $1, SB (poster) raises to $1.65, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5, SB calls $3.25.

Flop: ($10.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB calls $26.70 (All-In), Hero calls $21.80.

Turn: ($58.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($58.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $58.75