rebuy tourney question?

[kindling]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, additional question: If you bust late in the rebuy period...do you still rebuy (and if so...double?).

What if it's a WSOP turbo/rebuy on Stars where the buy-in is $2 and 'top prize' is only $33? Or $5.50 buy-in and 'top prize' is only $160? Surely this is different than say; the $20K guaranteed on Stars ($3 rebuy but first place gets like ~$6K).

[/ QUOTE ]

For these, it should still be correct to double-rebuy and add-on, since you should have 3500 chips, and only slightly below average chip stack. In other words, would you be willing to join the tournament cold after the break with 3500 chips, for $6 at that point, to win $33? Usually the answer is yes, because of the dead money, the fact that they're paying almost 25% of the remaining field, and the general quality of play in these.

The only time I've regretted rebuying is when I lost a hand just before break, and ended up with 100 chips, so the most I could get to was 2600 with the add-on. I felt I was add a disadvantage right after break, and I would rather have had 0 so I could be get to 3500. This may have been a bad situation to rebuy in, but I did it out of habit, and didn't get another hand in before break. In hindsight, I should probably have saved the $4 for the next tourney.

Regards,
Kindling

[DonkeyChip]

Thanks kindling. The blinds in these WSOP turbo/rebuys go up so quickly that it seems to be much more of a crapshoot...I've had a big stack at break and not even gotten close and I've been on fumes multiple times in the same one and qualified. Since the payout structure is as flat as it gets, I just try to get to the break as cheaply as possible. I do play a little more loosely but not like many of the maniacs...it seems with people just giving chips away that I don't need to. Does that seem like a reasonable/profitable way to play these? Optimal?

[AaronL]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to read masons book

Basically, he mathematically PROVES that if you bust out, it is profitable for you to rebuy.

Ironically, the added ev you get, comes from others higher up than yourself!

Yes, you must budget for 5-7 buy ins

I stopped playing them, for the simple reason that I knew it was + ev to keep rebuying, but at a certain blind level, you must be pushing crud. Bust out, buy in, push crud, bust out. Quite an expensive habit!

The problem is really this.

Even though it is +ev to rebuy, it is a very HIGH VARIANCE play. Which means that you will probably go broke again and again when you rebuy, and once in a while you recover, and get paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've actually read Mason's book (although it was several years ago) and realize that it is +EV to rebuy since each individual chip is "worth more" if you have a small stake then if you have a big stake... (I hope I'm paraphrasing that correctly) My point was that if you rebuy in the same tourney after busting out your are getting LESS EV then if you were to start in a fresh rebuy tourney (with a double add on to start)... I think Mason's point of view wasn't written with online tourneys in mind (where you can find several low buy in rebuy tourneys many times a day... or even with the bigger ones, such as the 100 rebuy on stars, you could just wait till the next day to start a new one)...

I also understand the fact that its worth while to gamble early and I'm totally willing to do this... Again, my point is not that it isn't +EV to rebuy but that you will be getting more EV if you wait for the next rebuy tourney to start since you will getting more chip equality if it is a new tourney...

(Say there is 100 people with x chips and everyone rebuys at the start if you are the fist to bust out you now have 2x chips with 202x chips in play... if you wait till the next tourney to start you get to start again with 2x chips with 200x chips in play...) Obviously the later you wait to rebuy the less and less your 2x chips are going "to be worth"...

[ QUOTE ]
there aren't enough rebuys to play a new one every time you bust. You also end up filling your table with chips and assuming you are better than your opponents you will have a decent chance to win them back post rebuy period. If you play like i do in rebuys, you'll also have a great table image that 90% of random donks don't realise that during rebuy play is totally different to post rebuy play and they will stack off to me with really bad hands because im 'terrible and play crazy' so they can't fold second pair etc

[/ QUOTE ]

This also makes alot of sense to me but again would you prefer to have this image when you already have all the chips or when you're trying to play catch up... If you can't wait for another tourney to start (if, for example, you are playing at high enough stakes and aren't willing to wait a while for the next rebuy tourney to start) then it would make sense to me to jump in again with another rebuy, since it is +EV... but if you can wait till the next tourney then I think it is clear that you get more EV for money then if you rebuy after already busting out...

[ QUOTE ]
If you wait for a new one you have to pay vig again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also true but if you double rebuy at the start and add on at the end in my case the rake is going to be (if you are playing a 10+1 rebuy for example) 3.2% (.1/3.1) of your buyin... if you add an additional double rebuy it is 1.96%... Rake (compared to nonrebuys) is pretty insignificant in either case...

[kemystery]

I disagree with OP to some degree, and agree with the above posters who state that it is of poor value to rebuy in late in some of these turbo rebuys that only award a seat. However, *not* rebuying say after getting an early hand cracked is +ev for those remaining in the event when you quit and don't rebuy so it *must* be -ev for you to do it.

A strategy I like to employ has the hero double rebuying immediately and subsequently playing it like a 'double stack' freezeout looking to soak up some of those loose rebuy round chips - then making the add on if it will increase my chipstak by 25% or more. If you get a big hand cracked and are looking at a 'plum' table it seems foolish not to rebuy - Obv if your table has a bunch of good and aggressive talented - well bankrolled players, maybe skipping the rebuys and moving on to some other tourney is the better play, just a side note; I have done ok a few of stars rebuys from the 3r to the 30r and one I did the best in I had T4800 after 1st break and was in for a double rebuy and an addon $30+$30+$33=93 and ended up 1st for 6700

having 30K chips after the 1st hour in a 1000+ player tourney means next to nothing, 30K in a 270ish player late night rebuy is much more significant.

I think you should be prepared to put 50-70 into the 10r or you're not getting full value, when I play larger buy in rebuys 50/100/200+ I don't feel there is a ton of value getting in 6-7+ rebuys unless your table or level of skill is outstanding

[TwistedEcho]

[ QUOTE ]
having 30K chips after the 1st hour in a 1000+ player tourney means next to nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

I will happily accept a LL bet in the 3r/10r/20r where i get to have 30k and you have 5k after first hour.

[hamnegger]

i think a solid approach is best i rebuy immediately and take a lot of flops w marginal hands even for decent raises i know donkey will pay if i hit. love any pp . to answer about rebuying if you bust at level 4. yes if you are going to push and push again till you dbl up. i have rarely busted my initial rebuy just by playing solid and waiting for the preflop goodies or postflop goodies. i love maniacs they are my overlay. i feel i can catch em later . i try to have at least 7g at break then i feel i can play poker.

[yoshi86]

[ QUOTE ]
i think a solid approach is best i rebuy immediately and take a lot of flops w marginal hands even for decent raises i know donkey will pay if i hit. love any pp . to answer about rebuying if you bust at level 4. yes if you are going to push and push again till you dbl up. i have rarely busted my initial rebuy just by playing solid and waiting for the preflop goodies or postflop goodies. i love maniacs they are my overlay. i feel i can catch em later . i try to have at least 7g at break then i feel i can play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

with this approach I don't see how you could be +EV by much at all even if you are a great tournament player. I would rather rebuy 10 times a tournament on average and have a 1% better chance to win 1st than this strategy.

[TPR]

I play these tourneys in the early evening, on a regular basis. My philosophy is that 'it all depends'. Is it early in the rebuy hour or late? Is the table playing tight or loose? Was I just unlucky or am I playing substandard poker? My goal is to have at least 10k after the add-on, but I've failed to reach that goal 2 times, that I actually ended up making the final table. So, that isn't carved in stone either. If you have fast and hard rules, I believe, you'll miss opportunities. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]