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#21
12-31-2006, 02:04 AM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
How can you get owned you may ask? Well paying two big bets from the turn on against a very aggressive player and not seeing a showdown with a hand that has some showdown value is getting owned cuz there is definitely some value here in showing this hand down. Instead of paying 2BB's on the turn and folding the river, check/call the turn and river unimproved and you'll pay the same price but always win when you actually do have the best hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why is folding the river assumed? If you b/c the turn c/c the river, you always win when you have the best hand too. Then you get the benefits of betting without the disadvantages of folding. Yeah it costs you more when he has a better hand but you have to weigh that against the benefits of betting such as increased IO, hand protection, and value from worse hands that will put one or zero BB if you check to them but one, two, or three if you b/c-c/c. This is not as clear as you think. c/c-c/c has it's place, but it can get you owned just as much as weak betting. Not all LAGs auto bet when checked to and a lot more don't do it twice. That's lost value that a more loose/agressive strategy picks up. 
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#22
12-31-2006, 02:40 AM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How can you get owned you may ask? Well paying two big bets from the turn on against a very aggressive player and not seeing a showdown with a hand that has some showdown value is getting owned cuz there is definitely some value here in showing this hand down. Instead of paying 2BB's on the turn and folding the river, check/call the turn and river unimproved and you'll pay the same price but always win when you actually do have the best hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why is folding the river assumed? If you b/c the turn c/c the river, you always win when you have the best hand too. Then you get the benefits of betting without the disadvantages of folding. Yeah it costs you more when he has a better hand but you have to weigh that against the benefits of betting such as increased IO, hand protection, and value from worse hands that will put one or zero BB if you check to them but one, two, or three if you b/c-c/c. This is not as clear as you think. c/c-c/c has it's place, but it can get you owned just as much as weak betting. Not all LAGs auto bet when checked to and a lot more don't do it twice. That's lost value that a more loose/agressive strategy picks up. [/ QUOTE ] Theres nothing you said here leader that I disagree with. The main theme of my post was that knowing when to check/call with this type of hand OOP in HU pots is a very valuable tool to have in one's arsenal, and that I think the heros hand is a perfect spot to deploy this strategy. Against most players, even lags, I believe paying 3BB's to showdown with ace high will be a negative proposition, and I believe against most lags check/calling twice will make the hero more money in the long run than bet/calling the turn and folding the river unimproved. The hero's turn bet cannot be looked at as a semibluff since no lesser hand is going to fold. What the hero's turn bet actually is, is a very thin value bet with his ace high holding. And making thin value bets oop in HU pots vs very aggressive players who will likely bet with more hands than they will call with, is just asking to get owned. Leader, just to reiterate, I agree with all your ideas in your quoted statement, and I can think of many opponents I play with where bet/calling the turn and calling the river will be better than check/calling twice. However if all I have is a laggy read, and I dont really know how this guy plays postflop, I prefer check/calling twice unimproved.
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#23
12-31-2006, 03:17 AM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How can you get owned you may ask? Well paying two big bets from the turn on against a very aggressive player and not seeing a showdown with a hand that has some showdown value is getting owned cuz there is definitely some value here in showing this hand down. Instead of paying 2BB's on the turn and folding the river, check/call the turn and river unimproved and you'll pay the same price but always win when you actually do have the best hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why is folding the river assumed? If you b/c the turn c/c the river, you always win when you have the best hand too. Then you get the benefits of betting without the disadvantages of folding. Yeah it costs you more when he has a better hand but you have to weigh that against the benefits of betting such as increased IO, hand protection, and value from worse hands that will put one or zero BB if you check to them but one, two, or three if you b/c-c/c. This is not as clear as you think. c/c-c/c has it's place, but it can get you owned just as much as weak betting. Not all LAGs auto bet when checked to and a lot more don't do it twice. That's lost value that a more loose/agressive strategy picks up. [/ QUOTE ] Theres nothing you said here leader that I disagree with. The main theme of my post was that knowing when to check/call with this type of hand OOP in HU pots is a very valuable tool to have in one's arsenal, and that I think the heros hand is a perfect spot to deploy this strategy. Against most players, even lags, I believe paying 3BB's to showdown with ace high will be a negative proposition, and I believe against most lags check/calling twice will make the hero more money in the long run than bet/calling the turn and folding the river unimproved. The hero's turn bet cannot be looked at as a semibluff since no lesser hand is going to fold. What the hero's turn bet actually is, is a very thin value bet with his ace high holding. And making thin value bets oop in HU pots vs very aggressive players who will likely bet with more hands than they will call with, is just asking to get owned. Leader, just to reiterate, I agree with all your ideas in your quoted statement, and I can think of many opponents I play with where bet/calling the turn and calling the river will be better than check/calling twice. However if all I have is a laggy read, and I dont really know how this guy plays postflop, I prefer check/calling twice unimproved. [/ QUOTE ] I understand what you're saying and if we had just A-high here I would agree, but the flush draw really does make a difference here IMO. Not only does it prevent us from being bluffed off the best hand, it also significantly reduces the other negative effects of being raised. Specifically, the FD discounts the price of putting in 3 BB by allowing us to win when behind 20-27% of the time depending on how we look at our A outs. When we have just A-high and he raises, we're faced with the unpleasant decision of folding our 15-20%* share of the pot or making a bad call down. This is solved by giving him the chance to bet all his hands but raise none of them. When we have the flush draw though, we're not put in this double negative position. It's simply a matter of measuring the cost of those times he raises us with a better hand or folds something that he would have bet and we would have liked to call(i.e. so random Kx) vs. everything else. I think this equates to a bet. It's certainly close, but I don't think this is a place for the traditional reasons to c/c-c/c. *this is my rough estimate of the amount we have the best hand when he raises.
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#24
12-31-2006, 02:23 PM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How can you get owned you may ask? Well paying two big bets from the turn on against a very aggressive player and not seeing a showdown with a hand that has some showdown value is getting owned cuz there is definitely some value here in showing this hand down. Instead of paying 2BB's on the turn and folding the river, check/call the turn and river unimproved and you'll pay the same price but always win when you actually do have the best hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why is folding the river assumed? If you b/c the turn c/c the river, you always win when you have the best hand too. Then you get the benefits of betting without the disadvantages of folding. Yeah it costs you more when he has a better hand but you have to weigh that against the benefits of betting such as increased IO, hand protection, and value from worse hands that will put one or zero BB if you check to them but one, two, or three if you b/c-c/c. This is not as clear as you think. c/c-c/c has it's place, but it can get you owned just as much as weak betting. Not all LAGs auto bet when checked to and a lot more don't do it twice. That's lost value that a more loose/agressive strategy picks up. [/ QUOTE ] Theres nothing you said here leader that I disagree with. The main theme of my post was that knowing when to check/call with this type of hand OOP in HU pots is a very valuable tool to have in one's arsenal, and that I think the heros hand is a perfect spot to deploy this strategy. Against most players, even lags, I believe paying 3BB's to showdown with ace high will be a negative proposition, and I believe against most lags check/calling twice will make the hero more money in the long run than bet/calling the turn and folding the river unimproved. The hero's turn bet cannot be looked at as a semibluff since no lesser hand is going to fold. What the hero's turn bet actually is, is a very thin value bet with his ace high holding. And making thin value bets oop in HU pots vs very aggressive players who will likely bet with more hands than they will call with, is just asking to get owned. Leader, just to reiterate, I agree with all your ideas in your quoted statement, and I can think of many opponents I play with where bet/calling the turn and calling the river will be better than check/calling twice. However if all I have is a laggy read, and I dont really know how this guy plays postflop, I prefer check/calling twice unimproved. [/ QUOTE ] I understand what you're saying and if we had just A-high here I would agree, but the flush draw really does make a difference here IMO. Not only does it prevent us from being bluffed off the best hand, it also significantly reduces the other negative effects of being raised. Specifically, the FD discounts the price of putting in 3 BB by allowing us to win when behind 20-27% of the time depending on how we look at our A outs. When we have just A-high and he raises, we're faced with the unpleasant decision of folding our 15-20%* share of the pot or making a bad call down. This is solved by giving him the chance to bet all his hands but raise none of them. When we have the flush draw though, we're not put in this double negative position. It's simply a matter of measuring the cost of those times he raises us with a better hand or folds something that he would have bet and we would have liked to call(i.e. so random Kx) vs. everything else. I think this equates to a bet. It's certainly close, but I don't think this is a place for the traditional reasons to c/c-c/c. *this is my rough estimate of the amount we have the best hand when he raises. [/ QUOTE ] LEADER, I AGREE THAT HAVING THE FLUSH DRAW IS VERY IMPORTANT HERE CUZ IT MEANS WE HAVE TO GET TO THE RIVER. WITH A7 NO DRAW I WOULD ACTUALLY BE MORE INCLINED TO BET/FOLD. AGAINST CERTAIN OPPONENTS I WOULD ALSO CHECK/CALL WITH THIS HAND, BUT THE SITUATION IS MUCH CLOSER WHEN WE HAVE NO DRAW. SO I THINK YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING SOMETHING HERE. WITH A7cc WE HAVE TO SEE THE RIVER, NOW THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE GET TO THE RIVER? WELL I THINK ITS VERY EASY TO SEE, THAT BETTING HAS NO VALUE HERE CUZ THIS GUY IS NEVER FOLDING A BETTER HAND, AND HE WILL PROBABLY BET WITH ANY HAND HE WAS CALLING WITH CUZ HES A LAG. SO CHECK/CALLING HERE WILL USUALLY BE THE BEST PLAY. IF THE HERO HAD A LOWER FLUSH DRAW WITH NO SHOWDOWN VALUE, THEN I WOULD BET THE TURN CUZ MAYBE WE CAN GET A BETTER HAND TO FOLD NOW. LEADER THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I THINK YOU SHOULD REALIZE IS THAT HAVING THE FLUSH DRAW TO GO ALONG WITH YOUR ACE HIGH SHOULD ACTUALLY MAKE YOU MORE INCLINED TO CHECK/CALL, NOT MORE INCLINED TO BET, WHEN YOUR OOP TO A VERY AGRESSIVE PLAYER. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT THAT ELUDES MOST 2+2ERS/GOOD PLAYERS, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THIS MUCH, ALL EXPERT HU PLAYERS UNDERSTAND THIS IDEA VERY WELL. PS: I just realized I wrote this whole thing in caps and im too lazy to rerewrite it. Sorry bout that.
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#25
12-31-2006, 02:45 PM
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Re: A7s
If we c/c the turn, are we really calling the river UI? Looks like KJ is the only thing that we're beating.
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#26
12-31-2006, 02:50 PM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
If we c/c the turn, are we really calling the river UI? Looks like KJ is the only thing that we're beating. [/ QUOTE ] I think you might be giving this guy too tight of a calling range on the flop. Do you really think he's folding this flop with Kh4h? I dont think so. So yes I would plan on check/calling the river unimproved.
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#27
12-31-2006, 03:00 PM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
WELL I THINK ITS VERY EASY TO SEE, THAT BETTING HAS NO VALUE HERE CUZ THIS GUY IS NEVER FOLDING A BETTER HAND, [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IF THE HERO HAD A LOWER FLUSH DRAW WITH NO SHOWDOWN VALUE, THEN I WOULD BET THE TURN CUZ MAYBE WE CAN GET A BETTER HAND TO FOLD NOW. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe you want to clarify your contradiction [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I think we bet A7o to fold hands that we DO beat that have 6+ outs against us. The pot is pretty big so I really wouldn't care if he folded. Because of the board , our position and our hand, having the best hand means fairly little in this situation. If he calls, are you c/c the river? Id almost as well have any two cards when I bet the turn with A7o. As well you can fold out the odd hand like A9o. A lot of people would fold middle pocket pairs here too now that the queen came up. About betting and c/cing with A7s, ILP brings up some very good points. If he's a showdown bound LAG then I think he's definitly correct. If he's folding hands like middle pairs to the bet (a queen + PF 3-bet is pretty indimidating even to many lags) yet also raising hands like OESD or FD that you beat, I think its pretty close between the two. I'd maybe lean towards betting. It also depends on his PF range, because a tighter LAG's range is kicking your ass right now, while a looser LAG's range has a lot more garbage hands to bluff with. BTW the concept of checking turns with outs and betting turns without outs is discussed in HP4AP. Although, they don't explan much how it's connected to the river.
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#28
12-31-2006, 03:29 PM
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Re: A7s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] WELL I THINK ITS VERY EASY TO SEE, THAT BETTING HAS NO VALUE HERE CUZ THIS GUY IS NEVER FOLDING A BETTER HAND, [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IF THE HERO HAD A LOWER FLUSH DRAW WITH NO SHOWDOWN VALUE, THEN I WOULD BET THE TURN CUZ MAYBE WE CAN GET A BETTER HAND TO FOLD NOW. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe you want to clarify your contradiction [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I think we bet A7o to fold hands that we DO beat that have 6+ outs against us. The pot is pretty big so I really wouldn't care if he folded. Because of the board , our position and our hand, having the best hand means fairly little in this situation. If he calls, are you c/c the river? Id almost as well have any two cards when I bet the turn with A7o. As well you can fold out the odd hand like A9o. A lot of people would fold middle pocket pairs here too now that the queen came up. About betting and c/cing with A7s, ILP brings up some very good points. If he's a showdown bound LAG then I think he's definitly correct. If he's folding hands like middle pairs to the bet (a queen + PF 3-bet is pretty indimidating even to many lags) yet also raising hands like OESD or FD that you beat, I think its pretty close between the two. I'd maybe lean towards betting. It also depends on his PF range, because a tighter LAG's range is kicking your ass right now, while a looser LAG's range has a lot more garbage hands to bluff with. BTW the concept of checking turns with outs and betting turns without outs is discussed in HP4AP. Although, they don't explan much how it's connected to the river. [/ QUOTE ] Theres no contradiction between those two statements you highlighted. If the hero had a 6 high flush draw, betting the turn has value in getting some other higher unpaired hand to fold. With the ace high flush draw, there are now no better unpaired hands that will fold. A9 is never folding the turn on that board, and nobody is folding a pair ever in this situation. BTW, I understand that saying words like "never" is not a good idea, and when I say "never" by definition I have to be wrong, but I do believe assuming A9 or any pair is never folding will be the mental model that will lead you to the most correct decisions. How to play A7 with no draw is actually very tricky cuz we no longer have a hand that has to see the river. But everything else being equal I would be more inclinded to bet the turn with A7 no draw than A7 with a draw.
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#29
12-31-2006, 03:38 PM
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Re: A7s
Weird, my brain mixed up the meaning of the sentence.
For some reason I thought you were comparing A7o to A7s not 45s to A7s. I just re-read it now and it's perfectly clear.... bah im going senial at 22 :O
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#30
12-31-2006, 09:13 PM
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Re: A7s
I've only read the first couple of posts and don't like what i'm reading. Against a LAG I think we should be checking this turn. You have a card that hits his range or gives him many draws not including the double flush board.
Your going to get raised here a ton by this guy by both betetr and worse hands. What are you going to do when you miss your draw 4 out of every 5 times. You're forced to SD Ace high agaisnt this guy and paid the most to do it. I think you took the worst possible line in this hand. Now if someone wants to make the arguement for bet/calling this turn and C/calling the river as the most profitable I'll listen to that.
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