A Couple (Hopefully) Standard Plays from the Blinds

[James.]

Hand 1

10/20 Live

5 limpers to me in the SB, i raise with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].



Hand 2

Full Tilt 8/16

3 limpers, SB completes, i raise with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB.


Standard?

[TripleH68]

Raise with 44. Yes.

Raise with JTs. I like it, but I am sure I would hesitate to make this play.

[poker1O1]

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Raise with 44. Yes.

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...What????

[Mr. Orange]

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Raise with 44. Yes.

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...What????

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You have an equity edge here. My problem is I don't make plays like this enough.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm doing it more nowadays. It works well so far. I'd raise both.

(note though that there are many limpers here, not just 2!)

[Bob T.]

Hand 2 is standard for me, if the limpers are loose.

Hand 1 I prefer to complete. I actually think your chances of winning the hand is much less than on hand 2, and there is a principle at work here, that I think makes limping a lot better. If your opponents are passive postflop, you will probably have a hard time recovering enough if you raise and flop good, whether or not you tie your opponents to the pot. On the other hand, if your opponents play aggressively postflop, you will probably make enough postflop if you flop good, but it won't matter if you raised or not, and your return on investment will be a lot higher if you just complete. With five limpers, your chances of winning here without improving aren't very good, give yourself say pocket 9s, and I am a lot more inclined to make the raise, because I have a much better chance of winning unimproved.

[Bob T.]

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You have an equity edge here. My problem is I don't make plays like this enough

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Whether or not you have an equity edge preflop, I don't think you need to make this raise. After you see the flop, you will know whether or not you have an equity edge, and if you do, it will be considerably larger than your edge preflop. Raising preflop might dampen the postflop action, and might make it more difficult to exploit the huge equity edge you might have if you flop a set.

[Ricks]

I like hand 1. I think that hand 2 is ok but I would prefer at least one other player in the pot.

[James.]

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Whether or not you have an equity edge preflop, I don't think you need to make this raise. After you see the flop, you will know whether or not you have an equity edge, and if you do, it will be considerably larger than your edge preflop.

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well, yes. if i flop a set i am in a highly profitable situation. but taking advantage of putting in 1.5sb to realize an immediate profit is okay, too.

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Raising preflop might dampen the postflop action, and might make it more difficult to exploit the huge equity edge you might have if you flop a set.

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actually, one could argue that if a "nonscary" innocuos flop comes like T43 or whatever i should still solicit plenty of action b/c that has "obviously" missed most hands the typical player raises with from the blinds. it will often encourage hopeless hands like KJ or 9T or whatever to continue drawing given the pot size while they are essentially drawing dead. this in effect helps tie alot of weaker hands to the pot which should actually increase the return on my investment, IMO. also, to a lesser extent an added bonus involves how suspicious it looks for a PFR to raise and then proceed to check the flop. as a matter of fact in all kinds of game conditions i see flops check through like this. in a wierd way, an ancillary benefit that is reaped might be getting to the turn for free without flopping a set which increases the odds of hitting that 3rd 4. of course this is the lesser of the benefits i mentioned, but it should still be considered.

[Hielko]

Raising with 44 from the SB is a bad play. You don't have an equity edge preflop, you are playing this hand because of the implied odds you get for flopping the set. By raising preflop you are cutting deep in your implied odds. Not only because you now are paying 4 times as much, but also because people will give you less action since they will make the correct assumtion (when you flop the set) that you have a strong hand.

I think raising with JTs is better, but still not a good raise. This hand is also mostly an implied odds hand, so you want to see a cheap flop. Raising with JTs is better though since you can flop more hands/draws and your equity is usually pretty decent. One problem with raising preflop is that it hurts your postflop edge, when the pot is 10SB preflop someone with KJ isn't really making an huge error calling with 3 outs on a xxT board. When you check preflop you will be earning a lot of sklansky bucks when you bet the same flop and he calls. But my major problem with raising is that you have to play the hand out of position on the postflop streets (you can't take freecards like you can with a late position raise, pumping a good draw is harder etc), raising this from late position is 100% standard.

By the way i'm not saying that those plays are -ev, but the ev of calling/checking is higher than the ev of betting.