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  #161  
Old 10-17-2007, 05:17 PM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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Humans are humans, by definition they are perfect, as a group, and in a general sense individually.

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If I'm perfect, the the hell can't I remember where I put my [censored] car keys!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the nature of a perfect human. Some entity with an infallible memory would be a very different species than a human, we construct our memories as we go.

luckyme
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  #162  
Old 10-17-2007, 05:39 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.
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  #163  
Old 10-17-2007, 05:42 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone else find it illogical to assert either
1. there definetely is a god
2. there definetely isn't a god
both seem easily debunked with just a few simple questions.

One thing is for certain, whether we believe there is a god or there isn't, the world and universe continue to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can say "there definitely isn't God X" depending on the characteristics ascribed to God X. If he is a logical contradiction, it makes sense to say he definitely does not exist. But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist." And of course, no one says this. Some people sloppily or lazily say "LOL God doesn't exist dummy" or something like that in response to some monotheist, but they PROBABLY just mean "no reason to think God exists and only a fool takes a policy of believing in things UNTIL they are proven false." Sort of like how I say unicorns don't exist, ya know? I'm not positive of this. It would be idiotic to claim that unicorns definitely don't exist. But I don't feel the slightest bit remorseful when I say it.
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  #164  
Old 10-17-2007, 06:01 PM
BuddyQ BuddyQ is offline
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Posts: 461
Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.
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  #165  
Old 10-17-2007, 06:35 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: GHoFFANMWYD
Posts: 9,098
Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say you did. If we are going to be nitty, I just said I don't understand why you WOULD say that. If you did. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But I was making a more general point that arguments from obviousness or whatever the opposite of the argument from incredulity (and actually its just a different form of the argument from incredulity) are very common and very fallacious. Many people will take your observation and then conclude that this "sense" or "feeling" cant just be random and that it must mean something. Which of course it probably does, just not what they want it to.
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  #166  
Old 10-17-2007, 06:39 PM
BuddyQ BuddyQ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 461
Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say you did. If we are going to be nitty, I just said I don't understand why you WOULD say that. If you did. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But I was making a more general point that arguments from obviousness or whatever the opposite of the argument from incredulity (and actually its just a different form of the argument from incredulity) are very common and very fallacious. Many people will take your observation and then conclude that this "sense" or "feeling" cant just be random and that it must mean something. Which of course it probably does, just not what they want it to.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I'm just sensitive because it seems, sometimes, the 'strawman tactic' is a favorite of some of the various interlocutors on here!
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  #167  
Old 10-17-2007, 07:24 PM
xxThe_Lebowskixx xxThe_Lebowskixx is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone else find it illogical to assert either
1. there definetely is a god
2. there definetely isn't a god
both seem easily debunked with just a few simple questions.

One thing is for certain, whether we believe there is a god or there isn't, the world and universe continue to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
If God exists, he cannot exist within the realm of human logic. it leads to a bunch of questions like "where did God from" that have to be answered by shrugging your shoulders. Also, the God that humans believe in is essentially a human himself. So if you make the statement "God can exist, but we cannot understand him anymore than a new born child understands quantum physics" then what is the point of even acknowledging his existence? it doesn't matter either way.
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  #168  
Old 10-17-2007, 08:09 PM
scorcher863 scorcher863 is offline
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Posts: 91
Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can say "there definitely isn't God X" depending on the characteristics ascribed to God X. If he is a logical contradiction, it makes sense to say he definitely does not exist. But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist." And of course, no one says this. Some people sloppily or lazily say "LOL God doesn't exist dummy" or something like that in response to some monotheist, but they PROBABLY just mean "no reason to think God exists and only a fool takes a policy of believing in things UNTIL they are proven false." Sort of like how I say unicorns don't exist, ya know? I'm not positive of this. It would be idiotic to claim that unicorns definitely don't exist. But I don't feel the slightest bit remorseful when I say it.

[/ QUOTE ]


thanks for the feedback man.

So atheism isnt necessarily the belief that there is no god? By that, do you mean atheism is a result of the creation of these god x's ie. christian god, muslim god, etc. and is simply the rejection of those beliefs? Would that by definition make a muslim an athiest of the christian god? And if so, what would you call someone who believes there is/are no god(s)?

I ask these questions because i am genuinely trying to understand, not because i'm trying to passive agressively attack what you said. I am 20 yrs old so im still wet behind the ears. Please forgive any flaws in my logic and feel free to correct any of them.

Also i think the unicorn analogy maybe off (im sure it came from off the top of your head.) As a human I can feel, taste, see, smell, and hear the universe and know it exists. I draw the conclusion, from the fact that the universe exists, that something created the universe. I come to this conclusion based on my experience that every and anything i have encountered in the universe is an effect of some cause, be it man, force, or w/e.

I think stone henge is a perfect example of what i am trying to say. People speculate many different theories on who or what constructed it (and they'll probably never know exactly) but they can draw the conclusion that some force that existed/exists constructed it. They can draw this conclusion from the mere fact that it exists.

Correct away, scorcher863
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  #169  
Old 10-17-2007, 08:20 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Basically atheists don't believe in god(s).

There is some room for slightly different interpretations, some say there are 'weak atheists' (not in a bad way) who believe 'there probably isn't a god' and strong atheists who say 'there is no god' (sometimes called militant atheists when they aggressively push their views).

To confuse it further you have agnostics who would say 'there may be/not be a god, but I can't know for sure' who are often confused with weak atheists. This shouldn't be done because religious believers can also be agnostics - so it is broader concept.

Also you got some semantic issues - most atheists would not refer to their reasoning as 'belief there is no god', they would call 'having no belief there is a god', this point is often important to them as they don't want to come of as 'believers' in something.

Apart from that you will in discussions on this forum hear claims about other stuff atheists believe/don't believe/do/don't do, and that's all just plain old BS. Atheists have no bible, no same agenda and neither do they all have to be logical, reasoning materalists who only believe in rationality.
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  #170  
Old 10-17-2007, 08:45 PM
scorcher863 scorcher863 is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

thanks for explaining that to me. So as an example, would that make jhawk a weak atheist (sorry to single you out) according to this statement [ QUOTE ]
But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist."

[/ QUOTE ]

Also could you explain how a person could be religious and agnostic at the same time? It seems like one says there definetely is a god (or else whats the point of being religious) and one says i cannot draw any conclusion.

Forgive me again if my logic is off
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