Live Etiquette - Line Check

[n.s.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The poker room has a lower rake (3+1) for six-handed or shorter. At least 6 times in the past two weeks, I've caught dealers over-raking the pots (taking the usual 4+1) in short-handed games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain what 3+1 and 4+1 mean? Where I play it's 10% to $6 max, no reduction for playing short-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

3+1 means $3 rake and $1 bad beat jackpot drop (so 4+1 is $4 rake and $1 BBJP). $3 rake usually means 10% to a $3 max - the percentage usually isn't as important as the max as most pots will hit the cap pretty quickly. The $1 jackpot drop is usually taken as soon as there's a flop, regardless of pot size. The jackpot drop isn't technically a rake (since it's all held in a fund and returned to the players via jackpot wins), but it might as well be since your individual chances of hitting it is so low.

[kerr]

Thanks. Here at Crown Casino, Melbourne (Australia) we get raped on the rake (and time charges). We have no BBJP on the tables, although we do on PokerPro, except the house funds it, not the players. Using both hole cards, lose with AAAKK or better and you win $5000 on a 1/2 table, or $1000 on a 0.5/1 table.

[TheStation]

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to use this thread to ask me any questions about Riverside near Iowa City, which I think has been horribly mis-managed from day 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to play a lot at Tama and Prairie Meadows before moving and can say from my one trip to Riverside, I was not impressed, no electronic list, no bar in room (so slow drink service), I think what bothered me more is a lot of the staff came from Prairie Meadows that was setup so well and then they botched this room. Also what games are going there/days of week (I am mainly interested in 2/5 blind or 15/30 limit or bigger mixed games and wasnt sure where that group of guys in Iowa was playin anymore)

[GreedIsGood]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The poker room has a lower rake (3+1) for six-handed or shorter. At least 6 times in the past two weeks, I've caught dealers over-raking the pots (taking the usual 4+1) in short-handed games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain what 3+1 and 4+1 mean? Where I play it's 10% to $6 max, no reduction for playing short-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

3+1 means $3 rake and $1 bad beat jackpot drop (so 4+1 is $4 rake and $1 BBJP). $3 rake usually means 10% to a $3 max - the percentage usually isn't as important as the max as most pots will hit the cap pretty quickly. The $1 jackpot drop is usually taken as soon as there's a flop, regardless of pot size. The jackpot drop isn't technically a rake (since it's all held in a fund and returned to the players via jackpot wins), but it might as well be since your individual chances of hitting it is so low.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Califonria you can't base a rake on the size of the pot, so a 4+1 rake will generally mean $1 rake of there's no flop and $4 rake if there is one, with $1 going to the jackpot regardless.

[pfapfap]

Regarding over-raking, as long as you aren't a jerk about it, then yes please remind me when I do it. I always count the players as I deal and then announced number of players as action starts, partially for them and partially for me. But yeah, we go on automatic, and a simple, "hey, only x players, too much drop" with a smile is much appreciated. It's the jerks who get all huffy and condecending about it that I could do without.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
You are a moran, not an [censored]-hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooh.... I love it when the serious insults like Moran fly on this forum.

[the_scalp]

[ QUOTE ]

I used to play a lot at Tama and Prairie Meadows before moving and can say from my one trip to Riverside, I was not impressed, no electronic list, no bar in room (so slow drink service), I think what bothered me more is a lot of the staff came from Prairie Meadows that was setup so well and then they botched this room. Also what games are going there/days of week (I am mainly interested in 2/5 blind or 15/30 limit or bigger mixed games and wasnt sure where that group of guys in Iowa was playin anymore)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that group of guys is at Riveside, though I suck at Omaha, so don't really know the schedule perfectly. I know the 2-5 HOE game runs every Monday (this last one there were 6-7 players there). I know the 15-30 mix game runs once a week there as well.

For everyone else -- this is an anomoly, by the way, these games are once-a-week events for a few old-time gamblers in Iowa (as well as a few younger, serious players). It is hard to find regular, higher games than 2-5 NL in Iowa.

Regarding mismanagement -- I'm pretty sure it all began with 3 decisions:

1) Hiring REALLY inexperienced floors. The first couple months, the floors knew very little about poker or card room rules. I had to explain to a floor once why it was bad to allow an all-in player on a draw to say to a third player in our hand: "call him, I'm only on a draw".
This is improving, however.

2) Dealers need to keep their own tips. There is simply a lack of investment in the games and the players on the part of the dealers, who share tips with all pit and poker dealers that shift. It's not just the speed that's the problem, it's like the difference between purhcasing something from the owner of a mom-and-pop gas station and puchasing something from a minimum-wage teen at a large truck stop.

3) No 1-2 No Limit. The room is HUGE (12-14 tables), but only runs more than 3 or 4 tables during crapshoot tourneys. Being this close to a major Big-Ten college and running a game so large that only serious poker players and total degenerates will sit in is a ridiculous mistake. 1-2 drops almost as much rake as 2-5, brings extra players into the casino, and keeps the poker economy healthy (college students can come and win or lose 9$/hour which will makes its way to the 2-5 tables eventually.

They theoretically spread 1-2 tables now, but nobody knows about them or requests them. They didn't allow them for the first few months.

[the_scalp]

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding over-raking, as long as you aren't a jerk about it, then yes please remind me when I do it. I always count the players as I deal and then announced number of players as action starts, partially for them and partially for me. But yeah, we go on automatic, and a simple, "hey, only x players, too much drop" with a smile is much appreciated. It's the jerks who get all huffy and condecending about it that I could do without.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an attitude that I genuinely find frustrating. Over-raking is not a little mistake, it is a monster mistake. It's worse, in my opinion, than almost any other mistake a dealer can make (most dealer mistakes are reversible).

Also, if I've noticed you over-raking, it means that you've probably already done it several times when I haven't noticed.

While I have a responsibility to help the games run smoothly, there's a reason players pay rake and tips for dealers to do things like make sure they're not dropping extra money off the table. Please don't "go on autopilot" -- you're making a decent wage for labor not requiring a college degree, you're getting payed to stay focused EVERY HAND.

I play at least half my hands at Riverside short-handed. If one out of ten of those is overraked by a buck, then I've had 50$ stolen from me by inattentive, lazy dealers.

The true financial damage to me is greater, however, because you're taking money off the table tha I no longer have a chance to win from other players.

If you were raking too little routinely, I'm sure you wouldn't just expect the house to "smile and patiently remind you". Why should raking extra money from the players be any different?

[KenProspero]

The $100.

I've been at tables where I've won pot someone has flashed a winner to the table, then mucked it. If person hasn't been a jerk at table, I've offered to chop the pot (unless the person whines about it in which case s/he gets nothing).

Do I 'have to'. NO. Would there be anything unethical or immoral if I didn't. NO. From an EV point of view, does this make sense. NO(well, maybe -- but that would take quite a bit of explaining). Would I ask for a chop if I mucked a winner. NO. However, it's my money, and my Karma, so I do what I want.

Your case -- it's a bit more egregious since you did miscall your hand. However, there's no rule against it, and you weren't shooting an angle, just screwed up. So, IMO, you didn't 'owe' the other player anything, but if you wanted to share the wealth -- well, it's your money and your karma.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding over-raking, as long as you aren't a jerk about it, then yes please remind me when I do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an attitude that I genuinely find frustrating. Over-raking is not a little mistake, it is a monster mistake. It's worse, in my opinion, than almost any other mistake a dealer can make (most dealer mistakes are reversible).

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, how is over-raking not reversible? First, let me say I'm at a place that does drop, not rake, so it's easier to correct. I'll gladly under-drop the next hand to make up for it, and I've even done that myself when nobody noticed. I've given a dollar back out of my pocket, as well. It's your sort of knee-jerk extreme reaction that is what I could do without. Talk to me like a person, not a dancing monkey. You'll have all e-tables soon enough, don't worry.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if I've noticed you over-raking, it means that you've probably already done it several times when I haven't noticed.

[/ QUOTE ]

For others, perhaps, but not for me. As I said in the post you quoted, I count the players every time and announce it every time. If I over-rake, it's usually only for one hand, and it rarely happens. If it's pointed out to me that I've been over-dropping the entire down, I'll gladly make it up to the players best I can from my pocket. As silly as my job is, I have pride in it, and a few bucks isn't worth tarnishing my standing in the room. I'm sorry if this attitude genuinely frustrates you.

[ QUOTE ]
While I have a responsibility to help the games run smoothly, there's a reason players pay rake and tips for dealers to do things like make sure they're not dropping extra money off the table. Please don't "go on autopilot" -- you're making a decent wage for labor not requiring a college degree, you're getting payed to stay focused EVERY HAND.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a university degree, so am I allowed to go on auto-pilot? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Seriously, you WANT your dealers to get into a flow. This is an incredibly repetitive job. I deal 200-300 hands a shift. I don't even look at the board most of the time. You don't want me to focus 100% on everything on every hand. It would slow me down considerably not to use my shorthand. Mostly the games run themselves, and I pay more attention when I can tell it needs it, but usually I'm just in auto mode. Doing that saves my energy for when I need it, when it matters.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were raking too little routinely, I'm sure you wouldn't just expect the house to "smile and patiently remind you". Why should raking extra money from the players be any different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I would expect my bosses to give me a gentle reminder. Maybe not the super higher ups who don't know me, but my day to day supervisors know I'm a good dealer and that I can err every once in a while. For some reason you seem to think that the occasional extra dollar dropped - which as I've stated I am always willing to compensate - is the end of everything for you.

If you don't think my auto-pilot mode is good for you, consider this: the high stakes players and prop players routinely compliment me on my dealing, and have many times told me I'm the best dealer in the house during my shift. I get out far more hands than almost any other dealer. My table is almost always clean, action clear, board neat. I prompt when needed, stay out when not. I'm aware of which players need help and which want to be left alone. I move the game along as quickly as possible, within the comfort zone shy of rushing. Factor that into your histronics when trying to figure out how much money I've stolen from you.

So, yeah, how about a simple gentle reminder on the very rare occasion this happens? Have I proven myself well enough for you?

Sheesh.