*Theory* When To Fire The Second Barrel @ uNL?

[Sounded Simple]

This is one I have been thinking over and Im not really getting anywhere with it. Also tried search function and either I suck at teh search or this hasnt been done before.
So Im throwing this out there to generate discussion and learn from those of you know more about all this than me.

We all know and love the "PFR, miss flop, c-bet and scoop pot" routine. Very profitable as long as we pick our spots.
Its so common that many opponents will call or float the flop with pretty marginal holdings, IMO these fall roughly into two characters

(A) Solid Thinking Player
He thinks on the second level and knows your raising a fairly wide range PF, he also knows you C-Bet the majority of flops and that there is a good chance you have whiffed and are on air.
Usually they are in position when they do this and their plan is to steal if you check the turn.

On the upside these guys will almost certainly fold anything less than TP with a good kicker when the pot is getting big. On the downside probably has something like a PP or decent SC preflop so they could easily be drawing or trapping.

Not too many of these at NL25 & NL50 but I often wonder if Im being floated when a TAG pulls this sequence on me.
I assume that this is more common @ NL100+

(B) Callstation.
They dont go to the hassle of putting you on a range or any silly stuff like that. They just think "Hey its only 8bb" and that TT might be good on a KQ3 flop or 87 is the nuts on an A84 board.
You can forget about getting these guys off TP or better but thats another story.
They dont like to be pushed around, but at the same time they dont get it all in with second pair either.
Now I know the (very true) maxim "Dont bluff callstations" but how often have you had your c-bet called then checked down and been shown something like bottom pair that you could easily have gotten them off?
My live game is full of this type and I can really pick spots to fire 2 or 3 barrels very profitably, but thats because I know them so well and I have plenty of time to think.

So here are some quickies for you.
In all cases your image is TAGish - lets say 15/8/3, anyone watching will know you C-Bet pretty often.
Do you fire again here? More importantly - Why?


Hand 1 - NL50
You raise to $2.00 UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villan calls on the button, everyone else folds
Flop 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
You C-bet $3.50 into a $4.75 pot, villan smooth calls.
Turn - Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Against "Solid Tag" Hero.....
Against "Callstation" Hero.....

Hand 2 - NL50
3 Limpers
On the button raise to $3.50 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villan calls UTG+1, everyone else folds
Flop 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villan Checks
You C-bet $6.50 into a $8.75 pot, villan calls.
Turn - Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villan Checks
Against "Solid Tag" Hero.....
Against "Callstation" Hero.....

Hand 3 - NL50
You raise to $2.00 UTG+1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villan calls on the button, everyone else folds
Flop j[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
You C-bet $3.50 into a $4.75 pot, villan smooth calls.
Turn - A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Against "Solid Tag" Hero.....
Against "Callstation" Hero.....

Hand 4 - NL50
3 Limpers
On the button you raise to $3.50 with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villan calls UTG+1, everyone else folds
Flop j[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villan Checks
You C-bet $7.00 into a $8.75 pot, villan calls.
Turn - A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villan Checks
Against "Solid Tag" Hero.....
Against "Callstation" Hero.....

All other thoughts and suggestions welcome.
For the TL;DR crowd - Who, when and why do you second barrel?

[AllTheCheese]

Nice post.

Hand 1 A: Bet again or c/r if you ever do that with sets.
Hand 1 B: Check/fold

Hand 2 A: Bet again, IMO he doesn't check/call sets OOP on this board.
Hand 2 B: Check and fold on river.

Hand 3: TAG either has [88-TT] or a set on this board. Depends on if you think he'd have given up and underpair or not. A calling station can have a bunch of 7s and weak Jacks here. Even though he's a station, I think this is a good spot to bet and make him go "oh noes, not the Ace! God, I'm so unlucky!"

Hand 4: I call foul deck and give my two fours of hearts to the dealer.

[King Spew]

[ QUOTE ]
(A) Solid Thinking Player
Usually they are in position when they do this and their plan is to steal if you check the turn.

************************************************** ***********

On the upside these guys will almost certainly fold anything less than TP with a good kicker when the pot is getting big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will float and bet the turn if you check. ATC.

I recommend you do less CBetting OOP. (I am less likely to float you if you CBet less)

I recommend you c/r the turn against me. (C/R TPGK all day long and half the night)

[too eazy]

Never double barrel in micro.

[Sounded Simple]

[ QUOTE ]
Never double barrel in micro.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I know value betting is the way to go at these levels and most uNL players miss waaaay more value and have bigger leaks than whats being discussed here but....
- Doesnt this make us totally transparent every time?
- Why pass up any edge or +EV situation?

At the same time you obv know what you speak of so at what level does this become relevant and why?

[too eazy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never double barrel in micro.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I know value betting is the way to go at these levels and most uNL players miss waaaay more value and have bigger leaks than whats being discussed here but....
- Doesnt this make us totally transparent every time?
- Why pass up any edge or +EV situation?

At the same time you obv know what you speak of so at what level does this become relevant and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there situations where you can double barrel effectively at uNL? Of course, but they're incredibly rare and it won't damage your winrate to play predictably. You need to recognize that the other micro players are so bad that it will take them thousands of hands to realize that you are truthfully mega predictable/standard. You can also throw in some turn c/r with real hands vs. regs if you really think they are taking advantage of this.

If you're thinking about when to double barrel in micro I think it's a bad habit and fancy play syndrome. Just ABC your way up until 100nl while working on the fundamentals and value betting then you can start working on outplaying people.

Cheers.

[AllTheCheese]

What's uNL? I thought it was a typo in the title.

[wallenborn]

Micro-NL, the u subbing in for µ which not all keyboards have.

[RapidEvolution]

Awesome post, bro! This is something I've tangled with many times. Generally speaking, I've found that c-betting less when I'm OOP (and not cbetting into 3+ callers with air) have helped my game. Also, I'm with cheese and spew and c/ring the turn with sets and sometimes with TPGK against regs so they're less likely to fire at you on the turn.

Hand1:

a) Against this player, I'll fire again if I know he'd float me on this board. If not, I'm giving it up.

b) Against calling station, I'm c/fing fo sho.

Hand2:

a) I'm checking behind on the turn here. pot is 43 BB and we've got 90. If we're raised, we're folding. If we're called, we're certainly not calling a river bet (are we?) and we'll have >1/3 our stack in the pot with air.


b) Checking behind again. This is the good thing about having position!

Hand 3

a)I'd probably bet/fold the turn here. We might've been cbetting with AK/AQ and if villain is holding a medium PP or called on the flop with KJs/QJs, the ace has to look scary.

b)I'm definitely stopping here. Stations rarely fold, and if he's got 2nd pair, he's got you beat (and possibly calling you down with it)

Hand 4

a)Check behind and pray for a third 4 of hearts? Make it to SD and brag on your cheat. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

b)Same.

[Sounded Simple]

4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is my new signature hand.