2/4, pow! donkbet!

[BigBadBabar]

CO is a known TAG, a bit tight
Button is unknown

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">hero bets</font>

here's what i was thinking about: CO can protect my hand for me and help me figure out where I am, more cheaply than normal lines.

if i bet and it goes raise 3bet i can fold to an overpair.
if i bet and it goes raise call then i call and check turn seeing what happens.

whereas if i check, bet, call, i checkraise(?) seems gross, because then if i get 3bet by a better hand i have to call down pretty much.

and my hand isn't strong enough, i don't think, to checkcall and checkraise, and checkcall flop, donk turn seems weird.

i'm sure co won't raise naked overs here so if i get called on the flop i should be able to take it down on the turn with another bet, and if i get raised i can dump it.

basically it just seemed to me like a good spot for a donkbet. thoughts?

[fretelöo]

I don't care enough for an unknown button and a known tag (who I'm assuming is blindstealing) to not c/r here.

The argument works both ways: if you check and plan to raise, you can fold if it's 2 back to you without investing anything.

If you donk and it's getting raised/3bet, same thing. But it's more likely to get bet/raised than donk/raised/3bet.

So I think that while a donk might protect your hand in the cases that CO holds TT/ AK and raises with it, you can gauge your hand strenght a bit better by checking.

Of course, no one folds to your raise and if they chose to draw with QT or KQ there's nothing you can do, but at least you charge them the max.

[Niediam]

I think checkraising for value is higher EV.

If you get 3bet you can call and fold turn unimproved.

[Spurious]

Well played.
I agree with your reasoning [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[Thomas Newton]

It's an interesting spot - thanks for the pm.

If I check and it goes bet/call, I'm going to raise on the basis that its a c-bet from CO and the button's hanging around with atc relating to the flop or better than a J - get some money in the pot or push them out.

If they both call, I'm not happy but I'll bet the turn and see what happens.

No matter what happens I'm not going to get over-attached and feel committed to calling down at any cost - if I ch/raise and get raised I might call one back to me (the tight read on CO makes me wary) but tainted outs, certain reverse implieds and being OOP with a vulnerable TP mean I don't like my hand much.

I'm going to play it like a strong hand until I'm told otherwise, hoping I have the best hand now and that the turn and river are blank.

[MrWookie]

I don't like the donkbet here against a TAG. If he raises you, he's not protecting your hand for you. He's protecting HIS hand for HIMSELF. If he raises, you won't realize much of the equity increase you get by button folding or the mad Sklansky bucks you get if he calls w/ something crappy. He'll get the lion's share of that, since the range he raises you with on the flop is better than your TPMK. Alternatively, if you c/r, CO is betting his whole range on the flop, a good portion of which you beat. Button will call with all kinds of crap, and then you get to charge them for an extra SB each.

[Buzz-cp]

If he is a tag, his range is wider opening in the CO. You are probably ahead on this flop and so you want to trap the button. A c/r is perfect.

[BigBadBabar]

if i c/r and get 3bet i assume the pot will be big enough to call the 3bet for my 5 outer...if turn and river brick brick and it's bet call to me should i be folding ui on one of these streets most likely?

[BigBadBabar]

i just felt like if co has missed overs, there's some chance he folds right away fearing he's getting caught in the middle, whereas if i c/r everyone he's getting odds to come along with whatever; i mean i would prefer to win the pot now than to try and ram jacks through if/when overs come.

[Buzz-cp]

if he has missed overs you want him to fold flop c/r