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  #171  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:15 PM
PLOlover PLOlover is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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The worlds most cited expert on nuclear technology says the extremely high initial investment costs required to build nuclear power plants is what is preventing private industry from taking chances. Nobody wants to spend a billion dollars on a power plant when a coal plant costs 1/10 as much. With fossil fuels the fuel is the major cost. With nuclear the plant itself is the major cost. I'd like to know what government regulations you are talking about that are preventing private industry from investing in nuclear.

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http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/policymakers/
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“Thirty years ago due in part to fear, in part to a lack of information, [American] politicians enacted policies that placed numerous road blocks in front of the nuclear energy industry. … Yet, at the same time Europe embraced nuclear energy even more. Today, Europeans have almost twice as many nuclear reactors than the United States. And they slashed dependence on coal by more than 30 percent—while we increased our use of coal by more than 60 percent.”

– Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.)
Testimony before Senate
Environment and Public Works Committee
Oct. 31, 2007

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  #172  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:19 PM
wacki wacki is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

PLOlover, thanks for the link. However, I have learned not to take sound bites from politicians as unquestionable truth. Do you have any idea what these roadblocks are?
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  #173  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:24 PM
wacki wacki is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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Mark,

I ask the same to you. Who will decide?

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The collective wisdom of the masses - THE MARKET.

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The collective wisdom of the masses is worthless and has failed us miserably in the past. I would recommend Jared Diaomond's <u>Collapse</u>. Interesting read.

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This is a breath of fresh air. A book from a widely accredited resource. I'm buying this right now.
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  #174  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:31 PM
PLOlover PLOlover is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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PLOlover, thanks for the link. However, I have learned not to take sound bites from politicians as unquestionable truth. Do you have any idea what these roadblocks are?

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yeah, that was weak.

I don't know exactly.
http://www.platts.com/Magazines/Insi...0152641s_1.xml
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Major Risks Associated with Nuclear

The major construction risks that must be considered regarding nuclear generation revolve around three major issues: capital cost, technical and design issues, and regulatory issues—all of which can create delays.

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http://www.energypulse.net/centers/a...y.cfm?a_id=360
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We also need a complete review of the crippling regulatory processes - all of them, not just those to do with energy - that do not significantly or cost effectively improve safety or serve the public interest.

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  #175  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:52 PM
adios adios is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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Just to point out a few things about the semiconducter. First of all it's silly IMO to believe that if we had no government research we wouldn't have the semiconducter.

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This is a crystal ball argument and an absolute eternity statement which gives it a double whammy. Not touching this.

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Actually it's not. Are you saying that Gordon Moore what not have done anything in advancing semi conducter techonlogy without government research? Preposterous if you are.

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Second of all computer technology advances were brought about by the private sector.

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True but when computer technology was in it's infancy the vast majority of novel breakthroughs were not from private industry. Your statement does not conflict with anything I've said.

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Right the private sector has and will make plenty of "novel breakthroughs."

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Third of all we don't know that government resources were allocated in the most effecient manner in developing this technology.

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I've never witnessed any research firm, private or public, that allocated resources in the most efficient manner. To expect this level of perfection is to expect consultation from God himself.

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A little history on the transistor.

Transistor History

During WWII and immediately thereafter a disproportionate amount of GDP was contributed to by government spending as opposed to the private sector investment and also at the expense of the private sector investment. That's shouldn't be a hard concept grasp but maybe.

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It may not have even been close to the most effecient allocation of resources. In fact it's possible that resources were allocated so poorly that the private sector would have come up with this technology far sooner. Don't know, probably not, but a possibility.

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Research in one area harms the progress of research in a completely independent entity? I'd love to see a historical example of this occurring. Either a principle investigator can prove his case to an angel investor/venture capital firm or he can't. In my experience that's pretty much the only thing that matters in a tech startup.

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See comments above. If I remember corectly you advocate having a disprportionate contribution to GDP by government spending ala WWII to "solve" energy problems and such. If you think that the private sector investment won't change as a result sorry to say you're sadly mistaken.
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  #176  
Old 11-20-2007, 08:28 PM
Mark1808 Mark1808 is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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People who are concerned about generating greenhouse gases are talking steps to reduce. If enough people think it is a problem green house gases will be reduced.

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Do you at least accept the fact that there might be bad results? Unlike the market, the laws of nature don't really respond to individidual preferences.

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Decisons in life are not made with certainty by anything or anyone. There are probabilities and estimates of costs and benefits. Nature and humans are in a constant state of adjustment to maximize utility. To have one person or a small group decide for the good of all when it comes to allocating resources does not seem to be as good as a market based solution. With a market based solution adjustments are constantly made to new information.
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  #177  
Old 11-20-2007, 08:43 PM
xorbie xorbie is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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People who are concerned about generating greenhouse gases are talking steps to reduce. If enough people think it is a problem green house gases will be reduced.

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Do you at least accept the fact that there might be bad results? Unlike the market, the laws of nature don't really respond to individidual preferences.

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Decisons in life are not made with certainty by anything or anyone. There are probabilities and estimates of costs and benefits. Nature and humans are in a constant state of adjustment to maximize utility. To have one person or a small group decide for the good of all when it comes to allocating resources does not seem to be as good as a market based solution. With a market based solution adjustments are constantly made to new information.

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You keep repeating this. Do you accept that some people know these probabilities and risks better than others? Do you accept that allowing the masses (who are uninformed, short sighted and greedy) to make decsions that affect everyone (including those who are more informed, doing the "right" thing) is a bit "unfair"?

You say that the market responds to new information, but there is always a large lag. In the case of environmental damage, this lag may be sufficient to move things into the "too late" case. Your faith in the market borders on religious faith.
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  #178  
Old 11-20-2007, 09:01 PM
wacki wacki is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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Actually it's not. Are you saying that Gordon Moore what not have done anything in advancing semi conducter techonlogy without government research? Preposterous if you are.

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Adios, you are misreading what I wrote. I have repeatedly stated that I refuse to debate what would have happened or what could have happened if we changed XXXXX. Those are crystal ball arguments. As I said before I will only discuss what DID occur. Everything else is a waste of time. I have also stated that any argument that anything will "never" be invented (within the subset of things that are possible) by a certain system is silly. Eternity is a long time.

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Right the private sector has and will make plenty of "novel breakthroughs."

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I never said they didn't. I only said that private industry has the historical track record of being nearly absent when it comes to contributing to certain fields. Any science college textbook can prove that. Private industry generally excels where there is cut throat competition. The current computer industry is one such example where private industry is the titan. But even today there are certain aspects of the computer industry where grant research is making huge breakthroughs. I suspect that is partially due to of a lack of competition from industry in a certain niche.

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If I remember corectly you advocate having a disprportionate contribution to GDP by government spending ala WWII to "solve" energy problems and such. If you think that the private sector investment won't change as a result sorry to say you're sadly mistaken.

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Well you can beat that ideology drum all you want but I refuse to go there. I made the simple request of one single historical example and until you can find one example then I guess I will remain "sadly mistaken" and your position will remain unsupported by historical facts.
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  #179  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:37 PM
Mark1808 Mark1808 is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

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People who are concerned about generating greenhouse gases are talking steps to reduce. If enough people think it is a problem green house gases will be reduced.

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Do you at least accept the fact that there might be bad results? Unlike the market, the laws of nature don't really respond to individidual preferences.

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Decisons in life are not made with certainty by anything or anyone. There are probabilities and estimates of costs and benefits. Nature and humans are in a constant state of adjustment to maximize utility. To have one person or a small group decide for the good of all when it comes to allocating resources does not seem to be as good as a market based solution. With a market based solution adjustments are constantly made to new information.

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You keep repeating this. Do you accept that some people know these probabilities and risks better than others? Do you accept that allowing the masses (who are uninformed, short sighted and greedy) to make decsions that affect everyone (including those who are more informed, doing the "right" thing) is a bit "unfair"?

You say that the market responds to new information, but there is always a large lag. In the case of environmental damage, this lag may be sufficient to move things into the "too late" case. Your faith in the market borders on religious faith.

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Did you know that within minutes of the 1980's Space Shuttle explosion the company's stock (Morton Thiokol) who made the O ring that caused the explosion sold off about as much as the NPV of the company's actual loss? The market is an amazing mechanisim.

When you go to a grocery store do you count all the items of everyone in front of you and the speed of each cashier to choose your line? Probably not, but believe it or not there would not likely be any gain because the decsions of the people before you have created an effecient system where each line has the same expectation of time.

The Soviet Union had a planned economy where experts decided what was to produced and at what price with disaterous results. Do you ever marvel at the sheer number of goods and services you can purchase 24 / 7 in this country. Why is there usually always plenty available of what you want? Who gave the orders? Who figured it out?

The market is not perfect but it is an effeciency seeking mechanism far more powerfiul than any group of experts. Small adjustments are constantly made based on price and new information that constantly moves to a more effecient allocation of resources.

Know one knows for sure what energy source can replace oil, I know solar is not competitive yet. Through the profit motive solutions will be found to this problem. To those who say the solution is too capital intensive we need government I ask how capital intinsive is the auto industry? Did it not solve a great transportation problem? Was government needed to supply the capital? How about electricity? How about telephones? Government doesn't create capital it takes it by force from the most productive members of society to spend in a way that usually is a complete waste. Education? War on drugs? War on poverty? Postal Service? Welfare?
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  #180  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:52 PM
xorbie xorbie is offline
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Default Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His

You're not even adressing my argument at all. I'm not saying the government should control everything, I'm not saying the market is useless. Information simply does not always spread as readily and quickly as you seem to imply. I'm talking about a very specific issue and you keep praising the market in a pointlessly general sense.

People do know, roughly speaking, what energy sources can replace oil. With some concerted social efforts, this country could easily be less dependent on oil than it is now. Might this reduce the standard of living to some degree? Quite possibly. It might not be the "most efficient" energy source. But the long term costs (even short term, see Iraq War) of oil dependence are simply ignored because unlike space shuttle explosions, the facts aren't slapping people in the face.
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