Two examples of drastically changing chip values

[A_PLUS]

I am generally in the corner of: The best way to play a hand, is to maximize the expected value of your chips (like in a cash game).

But I do recognize situations where making a -CEV (Tournament Chip EV) play also maximizes your $EV (dollar EV).
For me, It is only at extremes stack sizes that they come into play.

Also, it should be pointed out, that assuming CEV = $EV is never a HUGE mistake. Assuming that they are not equal can be, especially if it causes you to error on the side of caution.

Both (slightly modified) hands are from the party 20K.

Hand #1:
150 players left, avg about 60K or so.
(3K/6K, 100a)

9 handed
UG+1 (52K): opens to 18K (fairly straight forward, maybe on tight side)
Hero (MP): Pushes for 19K with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


Hand #2:
40 players left, avg around 220-250K.
(10K/20K, 500a)

8 handed
SB (202K): opens to 40K (fairly horrible player, would definitely try to steal by doubling the blind, but may also call a push with hands worse than KTs)
Hero (BB, 460K): Folds K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]


I will give the math and my rational in a while, I wanted to see what you guys thought of them.

[ty2472004]

I definately understand hand #1, but I'm extremely interested to see the math on hand #2. Anyways, nice post.

[AFennewald]

I can see why you would not push the second one but why not call. You are getting like 3.5 to 1 and have a reasonable hand.

[Art Vandelay]

I'll be honest, I don't get either of these and am interested in seeing the math.

Edit: After thinking some more, I kind of get hand 1 (I'm guessing the dead money from teh blinds is what makes this +$EV) but am not totally sure. Still no clue on hand 2.

[eBo]

Is Hand#1 a standard play that I should be doing? Cause I never do that.

Also, sometimes cEV and $EV differ by a lot. Example: In a SNG, if there are 4 players left, and the BB is willing to call 30% of the hands, then it is +$EV to push 20% of the hands. However, it would be be +cEV to push about 75%. These percentages may be off a bit, but the concept is still correct.

[yellowdoyle]

Hand 1 - I like this move, and do it frequently. You are hoping the rest of the table knows UTG is tight, so you have heads up chance to more than double up.

Hand 2 - I usually call pf, rarely push. However, late in tourny's, I have been known to fold a decent hand if some factor makes me think I won't be able to play the hand well. Such as me having absolutely no idea what SB could have.

[A_PLUS]

ebo, it is the same general concept as a SNG, just a lot less concrete.

[Quanah Parker]

I'm having a hard time with hand #1.
Since your on the ropes, with a bettor ahead of you, you'll get a better payday if you can win? And you're more likely for the rest of the table to fold, since Villian's in?
That's my guess at your logic.
I'm uncomfortable with this mainly because of his UTG+1 position, and your MP. I'd like it better if Villians was button and u were sb or bb, but....that's not how it always works out is it?
So, will someone pokerstove us some results against a decent range?
If this is a call, I need to know.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]

So, will someone pokerstove us some results against a decent range?
If this is a call, I need to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is almost certainly -CEV vs his range. We would need 35%+ for this to be a correct push in terms of chips, I doubt we have it. But thats kinda the point.

[Dunkman]

Hand 1: 29.1915 % 28.82% 00.37% { Jc9d }
Hand 2: 70.8085 % 70.44% 00.37% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }

That's probably looser than his actual range, and I still don't care much for playing our hand here. I'm very interested to see what you had in mind.

Also, in hand 2 I like the idea of calling and seeing the flop with position. Of course, you're like 100x more experienced than me, so I'm like 99% sure you have better rationale than I do.