Stud or Hi/Low: Which Is the More Difficult Game?

[TomBrooks]

The Introduction to Seven Card Stud For Advanced Players (SCSAP) advises that Stud is an extremely complicated game, becoming an expert is not easy, and it takes a great deal of time and effort.

Which is the more complex game and the more difficult to master: Stud or Hi/Low?

[sk8ram]

My post is going to start with the classic

IT DEPENDS

line that we're so used to hearing.


I would say that for players that are used to holdem or other types of poker, transferring to stud is easier than hi/lo. This is simply because the hand values are the same and players only have to worry about one end (the high).


Admittedly though, stud hi is incredibly difficult to master, and although new players probably pick up the general strategy faster (when to play flush draws, how to bet with premium pairs, general starting hands...), they are unlikely to develop a good feel for the game at higher stakes without a LOT of experience.

These players converting from other games to hi/lo generally have a hard time grasping the idea of playing to scoop and starting hand values.

On the other hand, stud hi/lo is much easier to learn if you're coming from a blank background of playing very little of any poker game. New players can easily learn the scooping potential of big hands (such as babies with a flush draw), and can normally find folding easier when they only have half a pot to contend for.

Hi/lo is also very difficult to master, but I would say it is maybe a little easier than hi when it comes to it.

As you progress through the stud hi/lo limits though, the play is fairly consistently bad quite a way up, so although the game is difficult to master, the rewards are still pretty huge.

So, concluding, my post has basically pointed out that it's very hard to show that either game is any harder to learn or master.

[xxeximusxx]

imo stud8 is probably the easiest form of poker to become a winning player at...including community card games, draw games, and other forms of stud. It is very straight foward and you almost always know where you stand .

[JoeDimaggio]

Stud Hi... because it is easier than Stud H/L to mix bluffs in and you can't count on winning half the pot. In stud high there are more opportunities to make plays than H/L, and a little less math and more reading ability than H/L.

[Micturition Man]

I think stud hi is probably the most difficult game. I'm pretty sure I regularly make plays that a true stud expert would regard as blatant mistakes.

Razz is the easiest by far IMO.

I think O8 is another game that is very difficult to play very well.

A lot of people think O8 is easy because it's very easy to beat soft O8 games, but that's just because O8 is an easy game to nut-peddle. (Whereas LHE for example is impossible to beat by nut-peddling, no matter how soft the field.)

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of people think O8 is easy because it's very easy to beat soft O8 games, but that's just because O8 is an easy game to nut-peddle. (Whereas LHE for example is impossible to beat by nut-peddling, no matter how soft the field.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good point. O8 seems easy to me but that's mostly because I'm playing live games where 70-80% of the players see the flop. Playing just moderately tight and chucking all hands that have little chance of scooping is an easy way to make money, and abandoning flops where you have little chance takes little skill. In addition it's often obvious that you have one side of the pot tied up and another player has the other, and you can lead 2-3 other players along by the nose, splitting up their contributions as they call along with 2nd-20th nut hands.

Maybe stud/8 is the same way, I have never played it. I know one very annoying problem in O8 that would not happen in stud is counterfeited lows. I can't tell you how many times the 2 on the river has cost me half of the pot.

[selvole]

I voted for Stud/8.
For me its sometimes quite difficult to see who is going high and who is going low. It's not always obvious. Therefore the mistakes I make are quite costly. In Stud Hi I may be beat by a better hand due to suckouts or misreads by myself.
In Stud/8 I'm sometimes (too often) completely wrong and push hard because I feel I have a boardlock which turns out to be the second best low or high.
Despite my struggle with Hi/Lo I think it's more fun.
Right now I'm a loser in this game but hopefully this will change because I really enjoy it.

PS: sorry for my bad grammar. I'm from Germany and left school decades ago.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
imo stud8 is probably the easiest form of poker to become a winning player at...including community card games, draw games, and other forms of stud. It is very straight foward and you almost always know where you stand .

[/ QUOTE ]

I sort of agree, because in stud/8 the skill gap between the fish and a reasonably competent player is wider than in any other game.

As for almost always knowing where you stand, I think you know where you stand less often in Stud/8 than in O/8.

[RobNottsUk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A lot of people think O8 is easy because it's very easy to beat soft O8 games, but that's just because O8 is an easy game to nut-peddle. (Whereas LHE for example is impossible to beat by nut-peddling, no matter how soft the field.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good point. O8 seems easy to me but that's mostly because I'm playing live games where 70-80% of the players see the flop. Playing just moderately tight and chucking all hands that have little chance of scooping is an easy way to make money, and abandoning flops where you have little chance takes little skill.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just started playing 7 stud to Bonus-w***e, as it's contributory and I'm bored of HE and there's no FLO8 action on the site.

Having played between 25c/50c - $1/2 FLO8 on Pokerstars, I'd say it's got tough this summer to win by simply nut peddling, the games are tighter (and there's more loose-aggression) than the starter books suggest. You can't just rely on 1/2 pot, with occasional scoop, but also play for folds, and catch bluffs.

Thought I'd try 7Stud 8 or better, having read SS2 chap, and seemed like I'd enjoy it when not in mood for 08.

What I'm liking about 7stud is it's easier to avoid paying off, when outdrawn, but despite calling station nature of opponents, I can actually run some 'literate' bluffs and make them fold incorrectly. 1 Rocky dude even folded on 6th street with open pair KK's, after I'd bluffed out 2 fish who were on auto-check mode, and so I must have had trip's rather than small pair + an Ace....


So whilst I can't say whether 7Stud or 7Stud8 is more skillful game, I am very interested in what strengths each game requires.

From SS2 it seems bluffing is difficult at Hi/Lo, and patience for right spots is very important; though like 7Stud I guess it'll depend on the ante-structures at higher levels.

[Mickey Mouse]

I think that Stud8 is one of the highest skill poker game there is today; hence it's a bit more difficult to master.
It seems easy, but to become really good at it, it takes a lot of experience! It's a very situational game.

Stud hi, I think, has too much variance, especially at lower limits.