Look death in the eye and laugh. $77 reg, AQ hand, late.

[zac777]

Convincing him to come over the top with 76s is a disaster. Assume that he folds it to a push or pushes when you raise to 1600.

Instead of picking up the blinds, you're losing >$10 worth of $EV by getting it all in with him (in that one case). Looking at the EV of calling AFTER the raise doesn't make sense, because you're committing your entire stack as soon as you put in that first raise. If you had raised half your stack with 32o and been reraised, it would then be correct to call, but that doesn't justify the first raise!

If we get more general and say that his call range is L if you push and his reraise range if you don't push is top 40%, then you come out $7 or $8 behind.

Whether or not your other reasons (raise/fold a bad hand or win when he flat calls) make up for this is debatable, but I don't think the logic behind inducing a reraise is solid.

I did the SNGPT quickly with stacks of 2600/3000/3000/1650 and blinds of 150/300 at a $100 tourney, so the numbers may be off, but I'm pretty sure you're losing value here.

[MadScientist]

[ QUOTE ]

wow. thats all I have to say. wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how to take this.
I had no problem calling and did so quickly. I posted this hand because I feel like when you have a 10 BB stack, it is on the edge of what SNGPT is good for. I thought it would be interesting to see what people thought of raising and the subsequent call. Also, if I were to raise to 2200 instead of 1600. The call becomes trivially easy given the range for SB, but a fold is possible against the BB.
Apparently, noone else just raises in this spot.
A question then for everyone: given the ranges I outlined above, what is your pushing range here.
The point that I would like to get at is that I can steal with a larger range of hands by just raising than can be profitably stolen by pushing. However, first, I would need to know what a representative range is for pushing here is.
I could give my own, but I am curious what the range is for everyone else.

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
limping pf is totally different. You then have to be a 64.2% favorite which you can not be. Then the call is horrible.
limping < pushing < raising

The real reason that people like pushing is so they do not have to play post flop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
No the reason people like pushing is because you aren't deep enough to play post flop poker this is a shove.

[MadScientist]

Zac, the blinds were 300/600 which makes some difference.
Your point is good, that if I were to call all in with AQo against him if I was in the BB would be bad.
However, I don't think he is pushing top 40%, but 20-25% of hands here (so exclude 79o).
Your point is very true, that I don't want him to resteal with any two. Against a true maniac, I would not raise (or push here). However, I think the BB can call with aces, some of the time as well as some kings and other hands that he likes. In addition, I can steal with 4x more hands by raising than by pushing which means I will pick up the blinds much more often. Also, when I have a big pair, I will get paid off more often.
In short, I am playing poker here with a relatively deep stack.

[zac777]

I cut all of the stacks in half along with the blinds, so that shouldn't change things. (Guess I didn't have any reason to now that I think about it. Just an old habit since I think in the old blind/stack structure)

The only hands that you welcome a reraise with are those that you dominate, but if he's raising those then he's also raising plenty of hands that you hate to see. If he pushes top 20%, you're still in worse shape than if he had folded the range that he now reraises with.

I disagree that you're relatively deep because your initial raise commits you to the pot (or very close to it). I don't know where the 4x hands number comes from, but I am fairly skeptical of it. Are you better off raising those and then folding to a reraise, or just pushing them too? I'd be interested to see the numbers.

[Slim Pickens]

Before you get any pissier than you already are, I'll tell you this, which I'm sure you're smart enough to demonstrate to yourself as an excercise for the reader.

In most 7-10 BB situations similar to the one you describe, there are often different +$EV ways to play a hand. You can distill them down to

1) Raise something like 2.5-3 BB and call a push. The exact amount isn't important but it's in that range somewhere.
2) Push preflop.

The first option allows you greater flexibility in raising and then folding to a push with hands much worse than AQo. These two options can have the same $EV value if the 3 BB raise will open up an opponent's re-stealing range over his all-in call range. Slightly less extreme bubble situations have about AT or 77 as the kind of hand that breaks even under a large range of assuptions about opponents' calling and re-stealing ranges, so AQo is probably good enough to qualify here. This can be a powerful piece of information when you want to steal against certain opponents with less risk while still disguising your big hands against everyone.

The problem is, by posting this hand, it leads me to believe you're like 99.6% of the medium-stakes STT crowd who doesn't understand it, and that's fine since it's a really subtle point and it's not necessary to play good, winning STT bubble poker. If you don't know the details of why you're calling with AQo here, you shouldn't make the less than all-in raise in the first place. If you do, and you sound like you actually just might, there's really no need to prove how much smarter you are than most of the rest of STTF. It's a case where if you have to ask, you should have pushed preflop.

[lastas]

Lol, by your logic its great to commit yourself with a raise every hand, because you will get great odds when repushed.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol, by your logic its great to commit yourself with a raise every hand, because you will get great odds when repushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's what he's saying. This can be a valid play if you understand why and when to do it, and also make the necessary plays in many other hands. This post is in a vacuum, and until the OP clarified his logic for making the play, the correct answer was "push preflop." Now, I think the correct answer is "whatever."

[tigerite]

It is surely less $EV to raise and call a push from a hand (that is for sure in a wider range than the one he would call if you pushed first-in), than it is to just open-shove. I mean, it can be proved easily by ICM that it's the case. Yeah both moves are potentially +$EV but the reason for open-shoving is that the vast majority of your $EV that you achieve is from when they fold, not when you have to go to showdown.

[Slim Pickens]

Against the right opponent, you can actually add enough hands you dominate to his re-stealing range to make up for the greater number of times you have to see a showdown. Someone else pointed out the logic to me months ago. I did the math, and I don't care to recreate it because it is hard and I am lazy. It's not a play you can make work by itself, since it's never hugely more profitable than open-pushing unless BB is a total re-stealing junkie What it can do for you is give you one more option for preflop action that you can use to win blinds against weak-tight players with less risk and disguise monsters against aggressive ones without varying your play based on your cards (in any way your opponents will understand). Like I said before, it's really subtle and non-intuitive, and totally unnecessary to play winning mid-stakes NLHE SNG poker.