Difficult QQ hand... - Page 3

Chaostracize · #21 03-16-2006, 04:58 PM

Looks 10x more likely that he wants you to lay down than call.

James282 · #22 03-16-2006, 05:03 PM

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Looks 10x more likely that he wants you to lay down than call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seriously think this is true of most overbet rivers, or just this one in particular? The check behind, bet turn, bet river line is much stronger than if anti-hero bets flop and pushes turn, imo.
-James

AZK · #23 03-16-2006, 05:12 PM

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anti-hero

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villain? this word slip your mind? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Chaostracize · #24 03-16-2006, 05:24 PM

I'm just saying in this spot since Ari has checked to villain 3 times. It's pretty clear he (Ari) is not full and does not have a K... so... against a good opponent, I think you have to call here like 50% of the time.

-Skeme- · #25 03-16-2006, 05:54 PM

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It's pretty clear he (Ari) is not full and does not have a K... so... against a good opponent, I think you have to call here like 50% of the time.

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That's what makes this so difficult. But how do you think curz would play Ace king here? Value bet river again expecting Aces or Queens to call? Going back to the good opponent thing, wouldn't a good opponent realize that an overbet AI looks like a bluff as he realizes his opponent is playing scared Queens/Aces?

James282 · #26 03-16-2006, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anti-hero

[/ QUOTE ]

villain? this word slip your mind? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ari,

Anti-hero is a word. I used it on purpose. Just thought you should know.
-James

mikech · #27 03-16-2006, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anti-hero

[/ QUOTE ]

villain? this word slip your mind? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ari,

Anti-hero is a word. I used it on purpose. Just thought you should know.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]
i think we should start using "antagonist."

James282 · #28 03-16-2006, 08:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anti-hero

[/ QUOTE ]

villain? this word slip your mind? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ari,

Anti-hero is a word. I used it on purpose. Just thought you should know.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]
i think we should start using "antagonist."

[/ QUOTE ]

mike, i love it.

how's the flowery fruit business?
-James

LuvDemNutz · #29 03-16-2006, 08:25 PM

AZK - My 2 cents -

checking the flop is OK against certain opponents.

checking the turn, I don't like it at all.

cwl · #30 03-16-2006, 10:13 PM

i dont know anything about the villian in this hand but against most folks i think the river is a fold. several posters have explained how this can realistically be a bluff from the villian and their reasoning for why the villian can be bluffing is fine. the villian could deduce that you dont have a super strong hand here and could know that that means you pretty much have to fold to a large river bet. you knowing this could imply you need to call. while this thinking is reasonable, more or less, i just dont think its consistent with how most opponents actually play. while it might be reasonable for them to play their hands as villian did and be bluffing its just not the case often enough and while it might be exploitable for the hero to fold to the river bet its not something that is generally going to get exploited.

the general line you took seems fine to me as long as you feel ok determining just how much bluffing the villian is likely to do. giving people a little more latitude to bluff and not wasting money on bets to figure out your beat is all good stuff when you have a non vulnerable hand which doesnt stand to gain much from value betting. if you end up talking yourself into making calls cause your just not sure where you stand, given how the hand played out, it can end up being a bit of a mess. against most opponents this river is a good example of that.