How should i play qq in this difficult spot??? - Page 3

bubaloo · #21 08-23-2007, 12:05 PM

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from 22/17 type people who 3b at 50/1, i have only seen a few doing it with a wider range than JJ+

this is just what i have been seeing. ymmv... now i do have notes on a few people who are 3-betting light on the button but this is <15% of 22/17 types

for me, i'd like some kind of read before i shove it in here

[/ QUOTE ]

my stats at 100nl are very similar to villains and my 3bet range from the BTN is far wider than JJ+, and i assume that other ppl w/ these stats have fairly wide 3betting ranges.

in this hand i would 4bet to $42 and call a shove.

loosbastard · #22 08-23-2007, 12:17 PM

You can make an argument for folding turn...but I think you played it fine. 4-betting here is awful w/o some sort of history/read.

PartysOver · #23 08-23-2007, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my stats at 100nl are very similar to villains and my 3bet range from the BTN is far wider than JJ+, and i assume that other ppl w/ these stats have fairly wide 3betting ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok yes you have a wider range. not all do and QQ is terrible against the calling range and i don't think the 3-b/fold range is wide enough that it's ok to 4-b

[ QUOTE ]

in this hand i would 4bet to $42 and call a shove.

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this is marginal at best

i'm laying this down a lot pf fwiw. i'm not a nit, i just don't like this spot at all. it's so hard to play and by flat calling you turn your hand nearly face up (and dont get very good IO). 4-b is not right either imo

sightless · #24 08-23-2007, 12:40 PM

I c/f turn

fitnessfreak · #25 08-23-2007, 12:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my stats at 100nl are very similar to villains and my 3bet range from the BTN is far wider than JJ+, and i assume that other ppl w/ these stats have fairly wide 3betting ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok yes you have a wider range. not all do and QQ is terrible against the calling range and i don't think the 3-b/fold range is wide enough that it's ok to 4-b

[ QUOTE ]

in this hand i would 4bet to $42 and call a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is marginal at best

i'm laying this down a lot pf fwiw. i'm not a nit, i just don't like this spot at all. it's so hard to play and by flat calling you turn your hand nearly face up (and dont get very good IO). 4-b is not right either imo

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh, this advice sucks.

a decent 23/17's 3bet/fold range here is huge. i play about 21/17 and i would 3bet a CO open from the btn with QJo, 76s, 22 and many other hands fairly often.

folding this hand preflop is just horrible. you are essentially saying that when the CO opens and a person who very likely 3bets a wide range in profitable situations such as this one goes ahead and 3bets, your shoving/calling range is AA-KK?

i guess i should note that i dont play this low so my advice might not apply as maybe people only 3bet with QQ+ and AK or something, but the 23/17's i know 3bet huge ranges from the btn when the CO opens. its an insanely profitable move, even moreso if people are folding the third nuts from the blinds.

PartysOver · #26 08-23-2007, 01:01 PM

maybe i just run really bad when this happens to me preflop. In my experiences it's JJ+, AK+ most of time that i see the showdown

based on the majority of the replies i must be wrong here but without a note at .50/1 i don't like to push here

edit/

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.207% 38.35% 01.86% 114253440 5540034.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 59.793% 57.93% 01.86% 172607388 5540034.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

21 in pot, you risk 99. x=% he folds
to breakeven:
(1-x)(99*.4)=21x
x=65%

i dont know, this is a spot i have looked at before and chosen to fold readless. maybe it's a leak but it's a small one and i think i save lots of buy-ins

edit2/ CO's stats and any sort of a read on BTN would be really useful (have you seen him abusing limpers/3betting at all recently?) i think if CO is <12% pfr it's a lot easier of a fold than if CO is 25% pfr

_Apollo_ · #27 08-23-2007, 01:12 PM

Aren't CO stats important here?
If CO is a nit, we can't 4bet but if both villains are loose raisers preflop I think we definitly beat button's 3-betting range.
Anyone that limits a 3bet range of 23/17 player to JJ+AK+ is really mistaken imo.

PartysOver · #28 08-23-2007, 01:15 PM

more useful information would be if BTN is on 5+ tables (where he'd be playing more straight up)

bubaloo · #29 08-23-2007, 01:30 PM

@ 100nl, if i have no stats on a villain, i assume his default 3betting range is TT+,AQ+:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.038% 53.78% 01.26% 270740232 6329616.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 44.962% 43.70% 01.26% 220017912 6329616.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

w/ these stats im sure it will be wider, im thinking along the lines of 88+/AQo+/AJs+ & add in 6h7h (as a 3bet light hand):

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.898% 59.91% 00.98% 406258323 6672981.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 39.102% 38.12% 00.98% 258468099 6672981.00 { 88+, AJs+, 7h6h, AQo+ }

PartysOver · #30 08-23-2007, 01:33 PM

that's 13 hands total. let's say he calls with the 5 hand range i gave him. he's folding 7/13 times = not enough

i dont know how many combinations there are, i dont want to figure it out, but i still dont think it's enough

edit/PS says your range is 6% and QQ+/AK/AKs is 2.6%
3.4/6 is still not enough