Push or Pull, loved or feared

[Fiasco]

In Cappeleti's LO8 book he says that its better to be feared in LHE, and better to be loved in LO8. The idea is that since youre going to be playing a tightish nut-peddling style anyway in LO8, you WANT people calling you down light, rather than folding to you.

Ive been thinking about this recently, and Im not so sure. We all know how important it is to scoop rather than chop, and it seems to me that I would much rather have somebody folding a mediocre two way hand to me on the river HU in a large pot.

WHile there are some game conditions in which I guess Id rather have people coming along with mediocre hands (when nearly every hand is going to showdown no matter what, when pots are getting contested multiway, when people are getting jammed in with bad hands) I think in general Id rather be scooping smaller pots than chopping (and possibly losing) bigger ones.

Any thoughts? Would you rather be loved or feared?

Another thing thats been bothering me is the preflop raise in LO8. It seems to me that it makes my hand way too transparent. If I raise in early or mid position it usually means I have AAxx. If I raise in late position or in the blinds it usaully means I have A2wx or A2sxx. It seems like raising the better A3sxx hands doesnt do me any good because im not getting rid of any A2 anyway. It SEEMS like the only deceptive hands to raise with are playable A4 hands (which there arent that many of) -- which is a bonus because you can get rid of A3s and 23s, if not preflop than later on -- and high only hands such as KQJT which would seem to add a lot of misdirection, but all the literature says you want to get in there cheap with them.

Another problem with preflop raising is that people may tend to check to the raiser on the flop, and then I dont know where I am in the hand from the action, or I find out much later after Ive put several bets in. It also loses me the opportunity to get a raise in on the flop most of the time.

Thoughts? Is preflop raising worthwhile and under what circumstances?

[phishguy]

I would rather be loved.
There is a few players online that I just can not beat.
So I obv. just do not play them.

Depending on stakes, I like to raise in Fixed limit.
Sure it makes your hands transperant, but if you are going to be a successful player overtime, you need to take down the smaller pots too.
Outside of the blinds, I raise more then I limp.
Its just my strategy and I have made a pretty large profit doing so.

[Fiasco]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather be loved.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
if you are going to be a successful player overtime, you need to take down the smaller pots too.


[/ QUOTE ] these two seem incompatible. Perhaps you didnt understand what I meant by the terms loved and feared?

[ QUOTE ]
Sure it makes your hands transperant, but if you are going to be a successful player overtime, you need to take down the smaller pots too.

[/ QUOTE ] Does this really help you take down more pots? Are you getting these pots HU or shorthanded preflop? Are you normally taking thses pots down at showdown, river, turn, flop, preflop? What are your WtSD and W$SD numbers?

[ QUOTE ]
Outside of the blinds, I raise more then I limp.
Its just my strategy and I have made a pretty large profit doing so.

[/ QUOTE ] THats good that you are profitable doing this. If you dont mind me asking, what stakes are you playing, and what are your VPIP, PFR, and BB/100? Im interested in how to integrate an aggressive preflop game, and also interested to know what sort of games it works in.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is that since youre going to be playing a tightish nut-peddling style anyway in LO8, you WANT people calling you down light, rather than folding to you.

[/ QUOTE ]Fiasco - Sometimes you want them calling and other times you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
We all know how important it is to scoop rather than chop, and it seems to me that I would much rather have somebody folding a mediocre two way hand to me on the river HU in a large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely!

[ QUOTE ]
WHile there are some game conditions in which I guess Id rather have people coming along with mediocre hands (when nearly every hand is going to showdown no matter what, when pots are getting contested multiway, when people are getting jammed in with bad hands) I think in general Id rather be scooping smaller pots than chopping (and possibly losing) bigger ones.

[/ QUOTE ]But you usually don't have that choice, or at least I don't in a B&M casino. I wait for an opening and then am seated with whoever got there before me. Anyone has the option of changing tables, but it's not easy to do that. If there are two tables, the second one formed is usually a "must move" table. So you sit down at the table and if you play for a while, opponents come and go. Your opponents have their own styles of play and if you play well, you adapt. Some are looser, some are more aggressive, some are more tenacious. No two opponents are exactly the same. You don't generally have control over the size of the pots (although you can exert some influence).

On one side of the coin (1) when you raise before the flop, you do make it tougher for your opponents to make decisions. And when it's tougher to make decisions, people are more prone to make mistakes. (2) On that same side of the coin, at least some of your opponents are more likely to fold when you up the ante (raise), thus increasing your chances of winning a small pot.

On the other side of the coin, if you raise a lot before the flop, at least your regular opponents tend not to be intimidated by your raises. If you raise infrequently, you probably tend to raise with your better hands (1) tending to get less action on later betting rounds, and (2) giving away at least the strength, if not the nature (range) of your hand to a smart opponent.

In my humble opinion, it's a matter of timing, a matter of finesse, a matter of playing your opponents in addition to playing your cards. This is much more difficult than merely playing your cards.

Your strong opponents will also be playing you (in addition to playing your other opponents, and in addition to playing their own cards). In order to counter their efforts, you need to play unpredictably, which means you should at least raise occasionally before the flop, if only to mix up your play.

But in a typically loose casino game, most voluntarily playable hands are pulling hands. The reason they are pulling hands is they mostly have good potential to connect with the flop and end up as the nuts on the river.

Don't misunderstand. Non-nut hands win more than nut hands (in spite of exaggerations to the contrary). Keep track for a few rounds of the table and you'll see for yourself that non-nut hands win more often than nut hands.

However, nut hands win much more often in Omaha-8 (especially for low) than in Texas hold 'em. Nut hands win often enough so that if you exercise good starting hand selection, your voluntarily playable starting hands will mostly have a good potential to end up as the nuts (especially for low). Then when you do have the nuts on the river, you want customers. Thus in a typically loose casino game, most voluntarily playable starting hands are pulling hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts? Would you rather be loved or feared?

[/ QUOTE ]Loved.

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing thats been bothering me is the preflop raise in LO8. It seems to me that it makes my hand way too transparent. If I raise in early or mid position it usually means I have AAxx. If I raise in late position or in the blinds it usaully means I have A2wx or A2sxx.

[/ QUOTE ]You (obviously) shouldn't be doing that. [ QUOTE ]
It seems like raising the better A3sxx hands doesnt do me any good because im not getting rid of any A2 anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. (However, you might tend to decrease your chances of getting quartered or sixthed by another A3XY).
[ QUOTE ]
It SEEMS like the only deceptive hands to raise with are playable A4 hands (which there arent that many of) -- which is a bonus because you can get rid of A3s and 23s, if not preflop than later on

[/ QUOTE ]And once you raise with A4XY, the cat is out of the bag.
[ QUOTE ]
-- and high only hands such as KQJT which would seem to add a lot of misdirection, but all the literature says you want to get in there cheap with them.

[/ QUOTE ]You need to get in cheaply with that hand because it will mostly miss the flop. (Raise once in a while with it for the purposes of deception).
[ QUOTE ]
Another problem with preflop raising is that people may tend to check to the raiser on the flop, and then I dont know where I am in the hand from the action, or I find out much later after Ive put several bets in. It also loses me the opportunity to get a raise in on the flop most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed.
[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts? Is preflop raising worthwhile and under what circumstances?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, pre-flop raising is worthwhile. To some extent you want to mix up your play. And sometimes you can isolate a weak opponent with a well timed raise.

Mostly I save my raises for later betting rounds.

My response to you seems very incomplete for such a complex subject.

Buzz

[HOWMANY]

In a full ring game I would rather be hated. In a shorthanded game I would rather be loved. This applies to any kind of limit poker game.

According to the definition of "loved" and "feared" in the OP I think it would fit better to say that I would rather be "feared" shorthanded. The point is that in full games I want people trying to be clever more often because they'll take so much more the worst of it. Shorthanded I want them to let me bulldoze them while they sit back and take it.