Home game ruling - was this guy a douche?

[Small Fry]

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I chatted with those in the know at the cardroom this morning. I'd like to amend my previous statement and say that "I fold" while tabling a hand does not concede the pot, no more than saying "I have a straight flush" while tabling 7-high can transform the tabled hand.

I think in the past I've mucked hands that were tabled and pushed towards me with "I fold" or something similar, but it so rarely happens. I'll be on the lookout in the future and not muck a hand if it's tabled, regardless of what's said.

In short, tabling a hand locks it.

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Does this apply for both tournament and cash games? My original responses were directed at the OP's game being cash. I'm finding it hard to believe that the actions of a player, saying he folds and throwing his hand away, can be overridden by the fact that his cards could land face up. Or are we going to argue Adolf didn't say "fold" so technically he didn't fold?

I know in a tourney that the rules state an all in hand must be tabled. Is this rule also in effect for cash games?

So I'm still thinking if this was cash Adolf's hand should be declared dead.

[Lottery Larry]

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I know in a tourney that the rules state an all in hand must be tabled. Is this rule also in effect for cash games?

So I'm still thinking if this was cash Adolf's hand should be declared dead.

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"Adolf instantly throws his J8 face up in the middle of the table, gestures to the pot and says 'take it'."

You mean, tabling it like this?

[Small Fry]

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I know in a tourney that the rules state an all in hand must be tabled. Is this rule also in effect for cash games?

So I'm still thinking if this was cash Adolf's hand should be declared dead.

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"Adolf instantly throws his J8 face up in the middle of the table, gestures to the pot and says 'take it'."

You mean, tabling it like this?

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Can you please show me a rule or rules that state a players cards if turned face up, in a cash game, on the river, are live? I can't find it. I can find this under Dead Hands, You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet). It doesn't say your cards have to land face down. It doesn't say they need to land in, on or near the muck pile.

In the Showdown section we have this... A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot. But as we've discussed previously in this forum if the original bettor decides to just fold (and you can bet the river, get called and just fold, instead of showing your hand) then there is no "showdown" and most in this forum agreed there would no requirement on the only player left with cards to show.

I cannot find any rule that states in a cash game an all in hand must be shown either.

So we have a situation where a player throws away his cards and makes a statement conceeding the pot. This action causes his opponent to believe he has won and he turns his hand face up. I believe that, in a cash game, Adolfs actions should be construed as a fold.

But some are saying because his cards are face up, no matter what he intended, his hand is live.

My interpretation of the the cards speak rule is to the extent of what the hand is, not to what action the player holding them is taking. That is cards don't fold, call or raise, players do. Cards only override a players verbal declaration about hand ranking.

I'm not trying to be an obstinate ass. I agree tournament rules state that an all in hand must be tabled and therefore Adolf cannot fold. No matter what he says. But I think it's different for a cash game.

I have a good deal of respect for you guys (well, some of you) as you tend to always get it right. So feel free to point out all the flaws in my reasoning.

[Rottersod]

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In my home game, if a player at showdown mucks his hand (meaning that the cards are thrown into the muck face down so nobody sees them), I do not require the other player to show a hand to be awarded the pot. In other words, a player can surrender a pot at showdown.

The rule at showdown is cards speak, regardless of what anyone says. If one player's cards are shown, another player cannot be awarded the pot without showing his or her cards.

I'd be happy to hear what other people do if they follow a different rule.

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Excellent rule. This is how things should be.

[pfapfap]

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In short, tabling a hand locks it.

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Does this apply for both tournament and cash games? My original responses were directed at the OP's game being cash. I'm finding it hard to believe that the actions of a player, saying he folds and throwing his hand away, can be overridden by the fact that his cards could land face up. Or are we going to argue Adolf didn't say "fold" so technically he didn't fold?

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Well, yes, that is a technicality, but a very important one. When I work, unless someone says "fold" or "pass", I don't count it as such until the cards are in my hand in the muck. Even then, it's best to wait for the hand to be mucked before acting on it.

I only deal cash games. Look again at the OP. He didn't throw his hand away and he didn't say he was folding. It's a live hand.

As to the very different situation of someone just throwing his hands in the middle and them happening to land face-up... if it was at showdown, they'd probably still play. At least in my room. But we also have a magical muck. But that's not what happeend here. If someone puts his hand face up on the board, it plays, regardless of what he says.

[zepthiir]

This is a tournament ruling which has a good explanation by the TD at the end of why the ruling was made. Not sure how it relates to cash but frankly I think if the action is completed and no player is able to act again then you have to let cards speak regardless of what is said.

http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/29329

[Small Fry]

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In short, tabling a hand locks it.

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Does this apply for both tournament and cash games? My original responses were directed at the OP's game being cash. I'm finding it hard to believe that the actions of a player, saying he folds and throwing his hand away, can be overridden by the fact that his cards could land face up. Or are we going to argue Adolf didn't say "fold" so technically he didn't fold?

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Well, yes, that is a technicality, but a very important one. When I work, unless someone says "fold" or "pass", I don't count it as such until the cards are in my hand in the muck. Even then, it's best to wait for the hand to be mucked before acting on it.

I only deal cash games. Look again at the OP. He didn't throw his hand away and he didn't say he was folding. It's a live hand.

As to the very different situation of someone just throwing his hands in the middle and them happening to land face-up... if it was at showdown, they'd probably still play. At least in my room. But we also have a magical muck. But that's not what happeend here. If someone puts his hand face up on the board, it plays, regardless of what he says.

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I agree if a player tables his hand then it should play. I consider a "tabled" hand as one a player turns over in front of himself or in an area close to him. I consider a hand as being "folded " when a player tosses it away. Like into the middle of the table.

But, with no other action by the player I would then rely on which way the cards landed, face up or down, to determine if it was a call or fold. Face up a call. Face down a fold. If there is additional action, say a vocal command then I think this overrules how his cards land. A player who bluffed the river and is pretty sure if he's called he's beat can either show or he can can just fold / muck. Typically he will not say "fold", but will just toss his hand away. Maybe saying good call or nice hand. Maybe he'll just rap the table. But all these action indicate concession of the hand. I say once this happens he no longer has a hand to lay claim to the pot. It doesn't matter if his cards land face up or face down as his intent is clearly to have his hand folded. I think we would all agree if his cards landed face down that he would have folded. But maybe not? But now, just because his cards are face up they are unfolded.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Also, in real life here is how I would handle this. If I was dealing a game and a player tossed his hand into the middle of the table, and it landed face up, and he said "take it" I would be confused. The physical action of tossing his cards out face up indicate he "might" be tabling his hand. (Why any player would toss his cards so they are out of his control before the pot has been awarded is beyond me. But I digress...) His verbal actions indicate he is giving up. So I would stop the action right there and ask him what he is doing. If he says he is showing his cards for a showdown then great. Pot goes to player with best hand. If he says he's done and just folding then I turn his cards over and muck his hand. Pot goes to the only player that still has cards.

I'll repeat that I'm talking about cash games in the above. Not a tournament. Tpournament rules state an all in player must table his hand and the best hand wins. So in the OP Adolf wins.

Sorry for the long posts, beating this topic to death and the hijack but I don't like to be wrong on these issues. I run tournaments and cash games several times a month and take pride in making sure I know the rules. When I am wrong I like to know the specifics of why and where.

[pfapfap]

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This is a tournament ruling which has a good explanation by the TD at the end of why the ruling was made. Not sure how it relates to cash but frankly I think if the action is completed and no player is able to act again then you have to let cards speak regardless of what is said.

http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/29329

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Sad to see that even pros believe in the magical muck. I love that TD, though. Wish he worked in my room.

[pfapfap]

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I consider a hand as being "folded " when a player tosses it away. Like into the middle of the table.

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I used to think that, too, until I caused quite a stir by mucking a hand tabled in such a manner, by none other than a dealer (who has gone on to be a major PITA, violating every bit of ethics and manners imaginable, but I digress)... and I was told that a tabled hand, regardless of where it lands, is live. Players throw their cards into the board all of the time, part of some insecurity thing where they have to overcompensate by flagrantly displaying how big their hand is, yaaaahar!

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But, with no other action by the player I would then rely on which way the cards landed, face up or down, to determine if it was a call or fold.

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When this happens, I raise my hands and let the player decide what he does with his cards. I'm usually sure what he wanted to do based on his body language, but it's about 50/50 table/muck when it happens.

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I think we would all agree if his cards landed face down that he would have folded.

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If at showdown a player throws his cards and they flip in the air and land face-down, the player should immediately clarify his intent. I always ask.

I'm a big fan of going with intent. In the middle of betting, if a player throws his cards forwards, that's an insta-muck by me. He intended to fold, and if he changes his mind, too bad. At showdown, other emotions take over, and people handle their cards differently. They get thrown a lot, and flip on their own. Unless they're very simply tossed forward face-down at a low trajectory, it can't always be clearly determined intent, and the player needs to clarify the action.

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If I was dealing a game and a player tossed his hand into the middle of the table, and it landed face up, and he said "take it" I would be confused. ... I would stop the action right there and ask him what he is doing.

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That is exactly what should be done. But "should" very often doesn't align with reality. In the absence of clarification, cards speak. And if someone tables a hand and then folds it, DO NOT show your hand if it can't beat his, as he still had tabled a hand and technically made a claim. When a rule is open to interpretation, awarding the pot to the player with the best hand is rarely wrong.

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I'll repeat that I'm talking about cash games in the above. Not a tournament. Tpournament rules state an all in player must table his hand and the best hand wins. So in the OP Adolf wins.

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Agreed. We both understand that tournaments are held to different standards than cash games, but usually tournaments are stricter. You seem to be wanting to make cash games stricter, whereas I feel cash games should be more flexible for clarification of intent, rather than strict adherence to a specific procedure.


What I've said is 100% correct with regards to how we run things in my cardroom, and how I run things in my home. This may not be true everywhere.

[jeffnc]

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So we have a situation where a player throws away his cards and makes a statement conceeding the pot. This action causes his opponent to believe he has won and he turns his hand face up. I believe that, in a cash game, Adolfs actions should be construed as a fold.

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As has already been mentioned, it can't possibly be a fold. He went all in and was called. There is no such legal "move" as "fold" at this point.

There is also no such legal "move" as "take it". It's not the players' responsibility to award pots to players. It's the dealers responsibility. Adolf could neither take nor give the pot even if he wanted to.

The only thing Adolf can do is muck. This is what you seem to be referring to as "throwing his cards away." That's the only thing up for debate. You can't really "throw your cards away" either, you can only "muck". Putting your cards face up and not in the muck pile does not sound like mucking to me.