Stud 8 Literature

[Landlord79]

Can someone recommend a good book for Stud 8? I've read SS1 and am breaking even at this game, but it seems like there is much more to it than what I am doing. Thanks in advance,
LL79

[skillzilla]

hi/klo split for advanced players by ray zee

[chillrob]

Super system 2 has a stud 8 section. You certainly don't want to use SS1 - Sklansky's section in that covers a different game, which is hardly ever played anymore - stud hilo with no qualifier for low. I think SS2 is great for an intro, then Zee's book for a more thorough look.

[Andy B]

Definitely Zee. Todd's section in SS2 is solid if you have that laying around.

[beermankirk]

the new full tilt tourney guide has good tourney discussion for stud/8. Usually only cash games are discussed.

[unit63]

Both SS2 and Zee are highly worthwhile to read, but my impression was that each emphasizes play against different kinds of opponents. In general, Brunson's advice is geared toward maximizing play against weaker opponents, Zee's toward tougher games. When Zee wrote his book, low-limit Stud 8 games were evidently not common as they are now with the availablility of Internet and lower-limit mixed games, so that's something to keep in mind as you read and learn the game.

Ted Forrest's section in the new Full Tilt book is OK, but it should supplement, not replace, the literature already noted here. I'd recommend reading Brunson first (for some solid basic concepts to focus on), then Zee (to get a better handle on your more marginal situations), then RE-reading Brunson (assuming you're playing against weaker players) to solidify your fundamentals, then check out Forrest if you're interested specifically in Stud 8 tournaments.

[Tha Stunna]

SS1 isn't useless, IF you've read the other books and have a good understanding of the game. There are some concepts that only pop up in ss1, like scoop vs scoop outs or "escaping". A lot of it does not apply very well though.

I would say Ray Zee's book, then SS2. If you have only played little, I'd go the other way around. Be sure to think about what they say though, the advice on 3 card straight flushes in Ray Zee's book is often criticized in this forum. It's pretty great otherwise though. If you want to be good, read them both many many times.

[chillrob]

What is lacking/criticised about Zee's advice on 3 card straight flushes?

[Andy B]

Some folks don't seem to like high straight flush hands, probably because they don't know how to play them. I don't recall anyone coming out and saying that the advice is bad, and I certainly don't recall anyone giving concrete reasons why it might be bad.

[Tha Stunna]

Okay, I probably should have included specifics. Here's the advice, slightly abridged:

Three cards to a consecutive straight flush:
These are some of the better starting hands. When you catch blanks, you usually can go to 5th or 6th street, unless there is a great deal of jamming, as long as your opponents boards do not look too threatening.
(end of advice)

Generally I would fold this type of hand on 4th if I was up against multiple low draws and caught a blank, sometimes against one low draw, and I would almost never call on 5th if I did not have a 4 card draw (pretty much never). Drawing to a draw is quite expensive in this game where you can pay to become an underdog for half of the pot. Catching the straight flush draw on 5th would be nice, but short of catching those four cards, it's easy to improve and be forced to fold. A flush draw, for instance, is a big dog against three unpaired low cards on board.

Generally the advice seems out of character with the rest of the book, which discourages chasing and playing on with only a decent chance for half.

As for the forum criticism thing, I've seen two posts I can remember asking for help on some ray zee advice (always the straight flush thing), and there would often be confused responses mixed with outright disagreement. However, you should judge my opinion based on the logic behind it, not based on forum opinion.

And I'm not particularly good with consecutive straight flushes because I rarely get them, but I wouldn't say I'm bad with them... but it's hard to tell. Honestly, this hand will make a tiny difference in your hourly profit at best even if you play it perfectly every time; you're better off learning how to play a pair of kings perfectly. Good luck with that though.