Common Critical Situation on Flop: To raise or not to raise TPTK?

[Matt Flynn]

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agreed in principal. definitely for on line. i think in a live game there is so much you can do with nonverbal communication most of my decisions are made on the flop.

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We haven't even scratched the surface of tell warfare vs average players. You've written a fair amount about it in the past, probably more than anyone here.

[creedofhubris]

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Why would you say there is no reason to raise here?
You have flopped TPTK on a straight draw board. So your line is just to check-call then here? Wouldn't you want to raise to make it more expensive for him to draw?

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There is exactly one open-end straight draw here. It's about as draw-free a board as you can get, which was, I assume, why it was chosen. You wouldn't be raising to charge draws but rather to extract value from weaker hands.

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One comment: I see gutshot broadway hands calling all the time here. How many global outs are you willing to allow the collective collusive before you feel obligated to pull the trigger?

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If the initial bet is less than half pot then yes, you may have to raise to knock out the gutterballs. But if the initial bet is of a decent size, I don't see that many gutters calling.

Besides, if you release to a reraise down the line then allowing a gutter in is not a terrible outcome.

[xorbie]

I haven't read much of the thread yet, but here are my thoughts. TPTK is generally pretty bad against a 3 betting range. It's generally pretty good against a flop lead. Putting in a potsize bet with any draw which is a significant dog to TPTK is an EV mistake on any street. Therefore, I like to call.

[limon]

i like to do something to confuse my opponent, to get them into call down mode, the action wouldnt be shut down just controlled by me (hopefully)

[adanthar]

for a ninja bump this is a good thread

[Rootabager]

"However, the one "change" in the game that seems powerful is so many players simply will not believe you have a hand as good as TPTK if you do not raise the flop"

I don't think this is that true. Almost everyone here is saying they call with TPTK in this spot. I think good players can def give you credit for having AQ here. I would think they would put that as one of the most possible hands in your range.

edit: If they see you as a TAG

[LearnedfromTV]

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for a ninja bump this is a good thread

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I understand calling as a default play, especially four way and deeper than 100bb. And I think I follow some of the free-card-like raise flop, check behind turn or raise turn/check behind river ideas.

Doesn't never raising AQ in this situation make your range too narrow? Assuming you weren't the raiser, so AA-KK probably are out, {set, 76s, gutshot/bluff} v {set, 76s, TPTK, gutshot/bluff}. Range 2 you get to bluff more! Or, if people think you have range 1 when you raise and bluff too much on later streets, maybe you get max value from KQ or JJ by raising the flop.

Edit: Also, if your range includes strong one pair hands, like AQ here, meaning you are generally raising more often in position than with the smaller non-AQ range, isn't that a good thing? Especially 300bb deep where you can raise the flop without committing a large percentage of stacks, even w.r.t. exponential pot growth (because you are in position you can usually control whether that flop raise is stack committing, making the raised pot more comfortable for you than your opponent.

[punter11235]

Just a little off-topic comment.
I hope your book wont be filled with too many multiway pots examples. Please please please dont come up with another "how to play QQ after 3 limpers a raise and 2 calls from SB" a'la Sklansky NL wisdom ...

[BobboFitos]

Hmm, this is def an old thread and i remember it. fwiw in a limped pot (why would i be in a limped pot w/ AQ?) id raise AQ in this spot 100%, in a raised pot, somewhere between 0% and 100%.

[johnnyrocket]

you need to raise here, u can let people draw on this happy straight draw board, there is not way to just call and let him take control, if so i am popping any blank turn. i think reraise flop, bet turn. Our hand is too strong here with a pot where no one showed ne real strength yet.