Because its a TAG, I don't fold ($50 Full Tilt) - Page 2

monkeymaps · #11 08-01-2007, 01:22 PM

Im assuming that you figured any good aces woud have RR you preflop.

c/c line pretty much makes the most if villian has air and air only IMO.
If he is betting a draw your letting him set the price.
Very few TAGS 3 barrel.

So I guess you put him on a worse ace?

Splossy · #12 08-01-2007, 01:23 PM

I'm guessing a set or air too. I don't get KK or QQ - he's gonna reraise those preflop.

This looks a bit like a hand I posted yesterday to unanimous derision. Surely, without a strong read that the guy is playing back with air, it's just spew?

reef2287 · #13 08-01-2007, 01:23 PM

i mean if you raise turn, my thinking is hes got to start questioning his hand, and will either check the river behind you or you can put out a small blocking bet and i don't think a tag raises this bet often, your line doesn't look weak and it could be cheaper than to just call his bet and allow him free roam on the river... if your thinking you have the best hand on the river

gumpzilla · #14 08-01-2007, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
gump if you were hero in that situation would you raise turn to get a cheap showdown? or am i totally off by thinking that

[/ QUOTE ]

Being out of position, raising the turn won't necessarily get us a cheap showdown, as checking the river in that spot is going to look a little weird. Beyond that, raising the turn against this guy's likely range seems like a bad plan because you'll knock out the bluffs and get charged by the good hands.

gumpzilla · #15 08-01-2007, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing a set or air too. I don't get KK or QQ - he's gonna reraise those preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frequently, yes. But this is a blind battle, which means there's less need to isolate, and also lots of opportunities to get tricky if he doesn't go to town preflop. So I wouldn't commit to this viewpoint yet.

reef2287 · #16 08-01-2007, 01:29 PM

i was thinking of raising and putting out a blocking bet on the river, but reevaluating it, that doesn't look good-- because only better hands are going to call my raise and now we're OPP in a funkier spot than we were... thanks

kurto · #17 08-01-2007, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tags don't call with worse aces.. they reraise preflop with better aces.. cept for maybe AT, AJ, and he's not playing that way with those.

Looks like he has a set.. or air.. and looks like air from the 1/2 pot on turn.. then bomb the river line. I'm gonna guess QKh or JQh

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the post that best mirrors what was going through my mind.

My thoughts were… the player is a TAG. I felt it highly probable that he was raising me with the flush draw on the flop. I thought if he had a much better ace then me he likely would have raised me preflop. I didn't think he seemed the type to call a raise with an A8 or an A4. Obviously sets were in his range but by virtue of the there being two diamonds on the board, I have to give weight to how TAGs play draws in position. So the flop call is automatic. I even felt if he had a set he wouldn't have done a virtual minraise (It crossed my mind that he's buying a turn card) I don't think my hand is strong enough to 3 bet. I also think if I 3bet he folds anything I beat. More importantly, If he pushes, I can't call. So I called.

On the turn, I note that he bets 1/2 pot. Though I don't have enough experience with this person to know for sure, I don't think it feels strong. I stick with my read from the flop. He either has an ace, a flush draw or some kind of pair/flush draw combo. (though obviously he can't have a paired ace and a flush draw which increases my motive to call.)

River doesn't change anything for any hand he's likely playing. I think in these situations, out of position against an aggressive player, I like to induce a bet. If I bet and I'm right, I believe he folds almost everything I'm beating. I don't mind if he checks behind.

When he does bet, what strikes me is that he bet 1/2 pot on the turn and is now betting closer to 2/3 pot on the river. I actually think this is what led me to call. It didn't feel right to me that he bet this strongly after his weaker turn bet. If he flopped a set, I don't think he bets the turn so weakly. I also think he bets more then 1/2 pot on the turn, especially with a flush draw out there. I felt like his bet wasn't value but an attempt to make me fold. So I called.

Villain showed J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Right on Prodonkey!)

I posted this because in hindsight its easy for me to think my thinking was spot on. But I'm never sure if it just seemed solid since I won it.

kurto · #18 08-01-2007, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i was thinking of raising and putting out a blocking bet on the river, but reevaluating it, that doesn't look good-- because only better hands are going to call my raise and now we're OPP in a funkier spot than we were... thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm still wondering... Is there an argument for playing more aggressively then I did? I was considering a blocking bet but I still keep thinking (1) most misses fold at this point (2) anything I beat is calling (3) For a decent player, they'll check/call any hand with showdown value (that isn't the nuts) and may bluff anything they fear is a loser-- A good hand will likely value bet something they think I will call (which is still hopefully less then the cost of me betting and getting raised)

ilya · #19 08-01-2007, 05:02 PM

JhQh is not air so i'm not sure in what sense Prodonkey is right on. i think you should lead the turn or even 4bet the flop. IMO you basically have the nuts on the flop against a TAG because bottom set is the only hand that could conceivably be beating you and even that probably re-raises preflop

i think "set or air" is a strange and bad read; sets are really unlikely and it doesn't feel like air either, i mean he's making it pretty easy for you to call him down with something like middle pair.

this is KK/QQ basically never IMO

blackice781 · #20 08-01-2007, 05:03 PM

i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation. a set/2pr would shove and i would allow myself to get away from this hand. it is highly unlikely that the villain has an ace with a higher kicker than you since he didn't 3bet you preflop. if he calls the min 4bet on the flop, i shove any non-heart on the turn. if he shoves min 4bet on the flop, fold. i think this would be better than the weak/passive route.