Two missed value bets?

[markuisis]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $59.25
SB: $137.30
BB: $82.50
Hero (UTG): $102
CO: $117.65

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($10.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $7</font>, BB calls $7, Hero calls $7

Turn: ($31.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">BB bets $14</font>, Hero calls $14, SB calls $14

River: ($73.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks


Villain seems decently poor

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $49.80
BB: $68.75
UTG: $110.60
MP: $44.25
Hero (CO): $164.35
BTN: $102.25

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $3</font>, Hero calls $3, 3 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5

Turn: ($17.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $12</font>, Hero calls $12

River: ($41.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP checks, Hero checks

I feel like i def missed some value in the 2nd one but I thought he could be checking some decently strong hands that r scared of the flush.

[markuisis]

r these standard bets?

[TPTK77]

With both hands, I would raise on the flop or raise on the turn. You want to see where you're at, and also build a somewhat big pot when you have a decent hand. Calling down is sooooo weak and is pretty terrible. You must raise with these hands so you can put your opponent on a range. Calling does you nothing.

[markuisis]

[ QUOTE ]
With both hands, I would raise on the flop or raise on the turn. You want to see where you're at, and also build a somewhat big pot when you have a decent hand. Calling down is sooooo weak and is pretty terrible. You must raise with these hands so you can put your opponent on a range. Calling does you nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate raising for information and building a big pot with vulnerable holdings in general (especially since most of the hands that call a raise r gonna have me beat IMO).

edit: btw, raising hand 2 is essentially a shove given his stack and hand 1 is multi way, flop is dry - raising is pretty bad i think.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
With both hands, I would raise on the flop or raise on the turn. You want to see where you're at, and also build a somewhat big pot when you have a decent hand. Calling down is sooooo weak and is pretty terrible. You must raise with these hands so you can put your opponent on a range. Calling does you nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on villains range and how aware he is of kickers, raising the flop or turn folds out aces with a crappy kicker and convinces TPTK+ that they don't need to be aggressive to get the money in this time. In the first hand calling can get us extra value from the kind of player who donks into the PFR with a worse pair or TPWK and shuts down to further aggression. In the second hand it gets also do the same from a PP or whiffed broadway that are willing to double barrell. In addition raising stands a good chance of Hero facing a PSB on the river from any villain who sticks around and suddenly the fact that we have less than AK starts to really suck.

In the first hand I think that a 1/2 pot is worth it as I think that we are the better hand here when called enough even with two players in the pot. In the second hand I would check behind unless our table image is such that villain will call thinking that we might be bluffing on a scare card. If he doesn't think we bluff scare cards then I don't see anyone but a player who can't fold top pair calling our bet.

Keep in mind this is one area that I also have a lot of trouble with.

[markuisis]

bump for morning crowd

[klb.]

Yes they are really standard valuebets, you're missing out alot of value cheking behind there. Especially if yout don't got anything on opponent that speaks against it. Btw I think you played well to the river.

Edit: If you're raising any hand on the flop it's #1, and it's for value.

[Mossberg]

Valuebet both of these. The bottom line is that you pretty much always have the best hand -- so bet, and leave the guessing game to your opponents.

[markuisis]

k thx, I agree i missed value looking back on them - what do u guys generally bet in hand 1 against two unknowns, hand 2 is a shove given his stack size.

[Chicago Twister]

I don't like flatting the flop in hand 1.