an argument against HUDs - Page 3

Dane S · #21 01-03-2007, 12:43 PM

Why did you call the turn if you were going to fold the river?

PokerBob · #22 01-03-2007, 12:44 PM

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Truthfully - I would say this guy is a winning player who was not running well.

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did you see the 53s hand? there are other hands he played that make it clear he is a loser.

here's one....

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.5SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.75BB

UTG+1 mucks AsJc

danzasmack · #23 01-03-2007, 12:46 PM

Bob,

no i didn't see that hand. When I said "winning" i didn't mean big winner.

edit: the 53 hand still looks like a VERY frustrat player to me. His turn c/r is a bit drastic but he probably figured you read him for nothing as his line made no sense.

it's called tilt.

As far as capping the KT and then folding the river to one bet - I'm not criticizing your play I'm simply suggesting that most people don't realize that players may make plays based on other players. Like I might cap top pair no kicker vs. someone who is terrible and then immediatly people think that I always will cap top pair no kicker, while I know that vs. most players it is a spew.

Dane S · #24 01-03-2007, 12:51 PM

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This whole hand is interesting. I think the preflop cap is light but whatever. I am curious as to why Dean and Stellar are checking this flop. Will villian ever release a hand like KJ or KQ on the turn after we cap and bet 2 streets? If we check behind here are we calling bets on the turn and river?

Then there is the little wrinkle of getting checkraised on the flop. While I agree that this was bad play by the villian with QQ, are all you guys going to SD here with KTs if he bets the turn and river? Seems to me that after we cap preflop and he keeps firing we are almost always beat. I wish PB posted the hand that way and asked for river advice.

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I don't get the case for a flop check here. I think betting flop and checking turn is a much better play. If I get checkraised on this flop which I don't think happens very often when I have outs, I just call and ditch the turn. Sure he is spazzing occasionally but not enough to call down.

P.S. I'm thinking it might even be better to just fold to the flop c/r actually. I am not happy about my prospects at all on this board.

PokerBob · #25 01-03-2007, 12:52 PM

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Bob,

no i didn't see that hand. When I said "winning" i didn't mean big winner.

edit: the 53 hand still looks like a VERY frustrat player to me. His turn c/r is a bit drastic but he probably figured you read him for nothing as his line made no sense.

As far as capping the KT and then folding the river to one bet - I'm not criticizing your play I'm simply suggesting that most people don't realize that players may make plays based on other players. Like I might cap top pair no kicker vs. someone who is terrible and then immediatly people think that I always will cap top pair no kicker, while I know that vs. most players it is a spew.

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well, capping KTs is not standard for me at all. i wanted him to be able to fold 22-88 on AJx and AQx flops.

he was super frustrated, and berated me non-stop. he kept saying "cap KT". haha. it was +ev, as the guy kept spewing bets. he got their every time he did, of course, just like in the 53 hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

PokerBob · #26 01-03-2007, 01:19 PM

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Why did you call the turn if you were going to fold the river?

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i convinced myself i had 5 outs.

cartman · #27 01-03-2007, 01:21 PM

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i convinced myself i had 5 outs.

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This is an epic post. Never has so much truth been spoken with so few words. Who knows how much money has been pissed away collectively by all of us for this exact reason.

PokerBob · #28 01-03-2007, 01:41 PM

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i convinced myself i had 5 outs.

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This is an epic post. Never has so much truth been spoken with so few words. Who knows how much money has been pissed away collectively by all of us for this exact reason.

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i am not sure if i should feel pride or shame. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Guy McSucker · #29 01-03-2007, 01:50 PM

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i am not sure if i should feel pride or shame. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Shame that you did it; pride that you identified it and posted it; relief that you don't need to make that mistake again.

Guy.

surfdoc · #30 01-03-2007, 03:13 PM

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This whole hand is interesting. I think the preflop cap is light but whatever. I am curious as to why Dean and Stellar are checking this flop. Will villian ever release a hand like KJ or KQ on the turn after we cap and bet 2 streets? If we check behind here are we calling bets on the turn and river?

Then there is the little wrinkle of getting checkraised on the flop. While I agree that this was bad play by the villian with QQ, are all you guys going to SD here with KTs if he bets the turn and river? Seems to me that after we cap preflop and he keeps firing we are almost always beat. I wish PB posted the hand that way and asked for river advice.

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I don't get the case for a flop check here. I think betting flop and checking turn is a much better play. If I get checkraised on this flop which I don't think happens very often when I have outs, I just call and ditch the turn. Sure he is spazzing occasionally but not enough to call down.

P.S. I'm thinking it might even be better to just fold to the flop c/r actually. I am not happy about my prospects at all on this board.

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I don't think you can fold immediately to the flop CR as you are now getting 12:1 and have somewhere between 2-5 outs if behind. This is sort of a side effect of the preflop action and hero bloating the pot. Anyway, I hear what you are saying and agree that when I come in there capping preflop and you still have the stones to CR an AKx board, you are gonna get me to lay down a large portion of the time. I was wondering if that was too weak but I doubt that it is.