fighting a light 4-bettor.

*** · #1 09-17-2007, 01:07 AM

This is a cash game question, but I think that SnG players will probably give better answers. Keep in mind the stack sizes, but also this villain's tendencies.

I ran into a light four bettor for one of the first times today, or at least he was the most diligent of the ones I have encountered. He was playing a fairly LAG game already, with stats settling at about 30/19 over the first 100 hands. (He started even looser, but settled down quickly.) He was also very aggressive postflop, with an AF of 15.

The first time he 4-bet was against my first 3-bet at the table, so I quietly laid down, and a couple orbits later I 3-bet with KQo and didn't have the balls to stand up to him gambler2k4 style. At this point I made a plan to get it in with him next time he tried that, but I didn't get a chance before this hand. Villain is on the Button, and so far any time he 4-bets light he has been in position. (I am sitting out, but would be between SB and BB).

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $598
Button: $690.25
SB: $594
BB: $736.10

Pre-flop: (4 players)
UTG folds, Button raises to $18, SB folds, BB raises to $30, Button raises to $90, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($183, 2 players)
BB checks, Button bets $150, BB raises all-in $646.1, Button calls all-in $450.25.
Uncalled bets: $45.85 returned to BB.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1383.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1383.5)

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1383.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1383.5)

Results:
Final pot: $1383.5
Results:
Final pot: $1383.5
BB shows QC QS
Button shows 7S 6H

At this point what sort of plan should I take against him?

What hands should I be willing to stack off with?

Should I only 3-bet hands I am willing to get all in preflop with?

Should I be calling his 4-bets wide and looking to see flops, or just pushing and running the cards?

What adaptations do you make to a player that is playing a slightly loose game but fights back against 3-bets?

DevinLake · #2 09-17-2007, 01:15 AM

When ever you 3-bet you need to have a plan. If your hand can't stand a 4-bet, but it has a lot of value seeing a flop, don't 3-bet.

Calling his 4-bets, or shoving on his 4-bets is more about the math. If you are 100bbs deep, he really shouldn't be folding after 4-betting. So, just assign a range and compare your equity to the odds you are getting on ur 5-bet shove.

Against the described villian though I'm getting in pretty light. Like ATo+, A8s+, a lot of pocket pairs (although I don't 3-bet a lot of pockets).

*** · #3 09-17-2007, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against the described villian though I'm getting in pretty light. Like ATo+, A8s+, a lot of pocket pairs (although I don't 3-bet a lot of pockets).

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this is the part I was having problems with since I don't run into this a lot so I'm not sure what kind of range to expect. How did you estimate his range? At what point do you start being willing to get it in light preflop? After the second 4-bet? After seeing a 4-bet pot go to showdown?

DevinLake · #4 09-17-2007, 01:55 AM

I didn't calculate his range...and I've never done those calculations for cash. I really should though. I think my range is probably actually tight if they guy trully is 4-betting you a lot.

Sometimes you just get a feel for what your play is doing to your opponent and know how he's going to respond. Here's an example of a time I've got it in pretty light.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($190.10)
CO ($395)
Button ($353.18)
SB ($411)
Hero ($487.50)
UTG ($112.22)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB raises to $14, Hero raises to $50, SB raises to $150, Hero calls $437.50 (All-In), SB calls $261 (All-In).

Flop: ($898.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($898.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($898.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $898.50

Results in white below: 
SB has 4c Ac (straight, seven high).
Hero has Tc Ad (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins $822. Hero wins $76.50. 

Here, I had three bet this guy a lot on a few tables in the last few mintues. So, when he raised from the SB, I decided I was felting my AT. I was expecting to be 4-bet and I was expecting it to be light even though he had not 4-bet previously.

Eagles · #5 09-17-2007, 02:11 AM

If people 4bet light you need to be prepared to 5bet bluff shove or stop 3betting them wide.

*** · #6 09-17-2007, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If people 4bet light you need to be prepared to 5bet bluff shove or stop 3betting them wide.

[/ QUOTE ]
So I should be 5-betting hands that I would consider a bluff against his range? Or should I just try to estimate a range for this erratic and 5-bet as wide as I think has value?

Eagles · #7 09-17-2007, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If people 4bet light you need to be prepared to 5bet bluff shove or stop 3betting them wide.

[/ QUOTE ]
So I should be 5-betting hands that I would consider a bluff against his range? Or should I just try to estimate a range for this erratic and 5-bet as wide as I think has value?

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how your 5betting range fairs against his 4betting range. It matters how it does vs his calling range.

cakewalk · #8 09-17-2007, 02:36 AM

No one else answered these questions individually, so I’ll do it before I go to bed.

[ QUOTE ]

At this point what sort of plan should I take against him?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would consider 4betting/5betting (obv calling shoves w/ both) this villain with whatever I 3bet him with, and a large portion of what I raise with. I would definitely adjust(tighten) my opening range with him left to act.
[ QUOTE ]

What hands should I be willing to stack off with?

[/ QUOTE ]
See above.
Or
Come up with what you think his 3bet range is, then deduce his 4bet range from that, etc. then come up with the range you’re going to use to beat it. this can be done quite easily by carefully looking at villain's showdowns.
[ QUOTE ]

Should I only 3-bet hands I am willing to get all in preflop with?

[/ QUOTE ]
From your description, I would change my 3betting range to hands I’m only willing to felt against this guy (obv. this list of hands is larger than against other villains.)
[ QUOTE ]

Should I be calling his 4-bets wide and looking to see flops, or just pushing and running the cards?

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely don’t call 4bets. If “pushing and running the cards” means going allin/calling allin then do that.
[ QUOTE ]

What adaptations do you make to a player that is playing a slightly loose game but fights back against 3-bets?

[/ QUOTE ]
See above.

another thing i would pay attention to is to see if this villain is positionally aware. see if he is raising 76o UTG or whatever.

this type of player can be very profitable to play against. i would try to put myself in situations where i'm the one 3betting, with position preferably. and from there i can shove over his 4bets with my adjusted 3betting range.

LearnedfromTV · #9 09-17-2007, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If people 4bet light you need to be prepared to 5bet bluff shove or stop 3betting them wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I agree with this phrasing.

I think it's more important that you change your 3betting range to include more hands that have good equity versus his fourbetting range, and then fivebet shove them. These are hands that usually shouldn't be in a threebetting range, because threebetting them takes away their value. ATo, KQ, etc. And mid pairs, which are usually threebet, when/if they are, because of how your opponent plays in reraised pots, are now threebet because you want to shove them.

I mean, if he's 4bet/folding then fivebet bluffing is fine, and it's a frequencies question more than an equity question, but since 4betting is right on the border of pot commitment, unless you have a real good reason to think he'll fold a significant part of his range to a fivebet, you have to threebet the hands you like against his 4betting range, and then shove them. And you shouldn't be threebet/folding until you have some evidence that he's changing gears, either flatting threebets or folding to them, because as described threebet/fold is not profitable.

(This is really just a semantics question. Every reraise shove is a semi-bluff, whether it's a threebet resteal in a tournament or a fivebet shove in this situation; you have some equity, he folds with some frequency. But this situation is more value bet and less bluff, because he's likely not folding very often)