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Old 10-01-2007, 01:31 AM
Dynasty Dynasty is offline
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Default Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

Book Excerpt from Tournament Poker for Advanced Players: Expanded Edition by David Sklansky


To give our author feedback and to encourage discussion, I'm creating this thread to discuss the article linked above.
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2007, 12:55 PM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

I really don't like the analysis in problem 12, with AJo after an UTG raise.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] There is far too much apologizing about having a short stack. Getting crippled, or simply failing to accumulate chips as the blinds rise, is a normal part of tournament play. It's not a reasonable excuse to panic. Unfortunately, time and time again, when people ask a reasonable question about playing with a short stack in one of the tournament strategy forums, the glib response is that you should never have let yourself get short stacked. This is particularly wrong for a player with a skill advantage who can double up more than 50% of the time.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Reraising probably will clear out the players behind you. That doesn't make it right to assume that that is what will happen. The possibility that someone else will get involved is significant, and you need to consider whether this will help you or hurt you.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] The conclusion was not justified mathematically. The excerpt seemed to suggest that if you are desperate, you should throw your chips in. While that might be the deciding factor here, a much better attempt should have been made to quantify it.

In this hand, you are in UTG+1, so folding means you get a free hand (or one where you pay only the ante of 25), and then the blinds probably hit you. Pushing as a 60-40 underdog means you give up that free hand 60% of the time, and the blinds hit you 40% of the time anyway.

How much does it cost to go through the blinds? Significantly less than the blinds themselves, since you are allowed to find a good hand while in the blinds, and after you make it through you are in late position where your stack is worth more than its face value.

The value of the free hand and the costs of going through the blinds may depend on the size of your stack, but let's assume that the dependence is negligible. I think a reasonable assessment of the net cost is about 100 chips; if anyone has some real data I'd love to see it. So, folding is worth about 1400-100=1300 chips, while pushing gives you 3300-100=3200 chips. That changes your threshold from 1400/3300 ~ 42.4% to 1300/3200 ~ 40.6%, which suggests that this is still a fold. This is a much smaller "desperation" effect than many players would assume, and it doesn't seem right to call this the dominant factor. For it to be right to push according to this calculation (which ignores the skill advantage which argues against pushing), your position must cost over 133 chips.


I'm afraid that this passage will encourage people to panic and play badly when short-stacked instead of making the most of what should be the most valuable chips.

Here is an example of a similar hand from a live tournament. I was short stacked in the small blind (due to playing well, btw), and considered pushing over a button steal raise with a weak hand. It seemed like a close decision numerically if I were sure that the big blind would fold, since the dead money was significant in comparison with my stack. However, even without skill advantage consideration, chips in a short stack on the button are worth a lot more than chips in a short stack in general, and there was no guarantee that the big blind would stay out. So, I folded. I was very happy after the BB reraised, and showed down AA. I bounced back to an above average stack.
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Old 10-04-2007, 02:47 PM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

The question was taken out of context. There was more discussion of the relevant ideas in the text.

You are certainly right that a very small stack should not be avoided at all costs and that being desperate doesn't mean you should make large negative EV plays. But it is easy to show mathematically that small negative EV plays should be made if even worse plays quickly loom on the horizon.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:39 PM
Al Mirpuri Al Mirpuri is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

[ QUOTE ]
Book Excerpt from Tournament Poker for Advanced Players: Expanded Edition by David Sklansky


To give our author feedback and to encourage discussion, I'm creating this thread to discuss the article linked above.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a question about the article per se. I wish to know if someone owning the original (me) should upgrade to the new edition as I am wondering just what it could add to the HOH series?
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  #5  
Old 10-14-2007, 11:24 PM
Gene Paulson Gene Paulson is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

Is the unindented area on the Jack nine hand an example of the revision or are all the entries? I use his books very heavily and try to compare all my playing to them and were in them as a reference; I think along the exceptions lines myself when answering that question, the chang to 1,600 makes for an exact change so you could then go on to thoses type of bet size questions on top of the more general tournament opportunities
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Old 11-01-2007, 10:27 AM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

In the J9s hand example following the 72o example, he says "Obviously making it $2,500 to go would show a profit. After all if seven-deuce offsuit would, this hand will as well. The problem is that it would not show a greater profit."

That's not true. It shows a greater profit simply because you will be called sometimes. His answer implies that you might be called with a $1,600 raise, but not by a $2,500 raise, which is not true.
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  #7  
Old 11-01-2007, 10:34 AM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

I have a question about #11. If you are going to fold here (which I don't really have a problem with), then why did you call preflop? To me this is just as much a preflop question as postflop, because what did you expect to hit exactly? An ace, and lose chips to a great player who raised with AK? You are not going to make much money off him if he raised with KK or QQ. A flush draw, since your hand was suited? Well, now you're thinking of folding. A Q high flop, when he might have AA or KK? How about just flopping the nut flush? Well, I wouldn't recommend calling big raises with the hope of flopping flushes, or trip Qs for that matter (trip aces isn't going to help you a whole lot, given the preflop risk and postflop reward.)

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're thinking of folding here, you shouldn't have seen the flop.
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Old 11-01-2007, 10:40 AM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an example of a similar hand from a live tournament. I was short stacked in the small blind

[/ QUOTE ]

pzhon, next time, don't let yourself get such a short stack. Get all your chips in earlier and if you lose, so be it - go play the cash games where all the busted out donkeys are gambooling it up.
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  #9  
Old 11-01-2007, 10:42 AM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

[ QUOTE ]
But it is easy to show mathematically that small negative EV plays should be made if even worse plays quickly loom on the horizon.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's intuitively obvious that you should take a small -EV play over a large -EV play. What wasn't obvious from the excerpt was that folding was a large -EV play.
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  #10  
Old 11-11-2007, 08:19 AM
steve867557 steve867557 is offline
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Default Re: Discuss: Book Excerpt form Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

nice book
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