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#1
09-16-2007, 06:19 PM
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I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
Borg 20 game isn't playing too great right now, still a few fish but the table has tighted up significanlty. I think all the streets are debateable here.
UTG is a very experienced tourney player and from what I've seen a fairly strong limit holdem player. He's a bit on the laggy side and plays too loose BB is RobA UTG limps, 2 limpers, I complete in sb w/AdJc, bb checks Flop KJ2 all diamonds I check, RobA bets, UTG Raises, 1 cold call I check 3 bet, Rob folds, UTG calls, caller folds Turn J I bet utg raises folded to me, I call River A I bet UTG calls Anyone play the river differently? Anyone play the flop differently? 
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#4
09-16-2007, 07:41 PM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you checkraise the river/ [/ QUOTE ] I thought he was the type to free showdown me. I'd watched him raise bottom pair on the flop bet the turn and check the river. I've also seen him bet fold so I was afraid he might pull that trick outta the bag and I'd puke if the river went check check.
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#5
09-16-2007, 07:57 PM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
Raise pre-flop. You have the best hand pre-flop or at least two overs to any pair out there. Eliminate BB. Easy pre-flop move as long as you don't feel obliged to fire 3 blindless shells after an unfavorable flop. As played or if raised pre-flop bet flop. Call flop raise. Check call turn. Check-raise river.
Garland
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#6
09-16-2007, 07:58 PM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
[ QUOTE ]
Borg 20 game isn't playing too great right now, still a few fish but the table has tighted up significanlty. I think all the streets are debateable here. UTG is a very experienced tourney player and from what I've seen a fairly strong limit holdem player. He's a bit on the laggy side and plays too loose BB is RobA UTG limps, 2 limpers, I complete in sb w/AdJc, bb checks Flop KJ2 all diamonds I check, RobA bets, UTG Raises, 1 cold call I check 3 bet, Rob folds, UTG calls, caller folds Turn J I bet utg raises folded to me, I call River A I bet UTG calls Anyone play the river differently? Anyone play the flop differently? [/ QUOTE ] I would not three bet the flop. Just call, keep your customers for your the nut flush draw (or runner runner boat). Why chase people out? Seems like you could have checkraised the river since villian flopped a flush. But I almost always bet out, personally, though I realize it probably leaves money on the table sometimes. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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#7
09-16-2007, 08:51 PM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
[ QUOTE ]
Raise pre-flop. You have the best hand pre-flop or at least two overs to any pair out there. Eliminate BB. Easy pre-flop move as long as you don't feel obliged to fire 3 blindless shells after an unfavorable flop. As played or if raised pre-flop bet flop. Call flop raise. Check call turn. Check-raise river. Garland [/ QUOTE ] I really don't like raising big unsuited cards out the the blinds pf when there are a few limpers and I usually only raise AK or AQ. If I hit the flop, it will likley be a 1 pair hand which is not a monster multiway. On top of that I'm going to tie people to the pot and allow them to correctly draw to their 5 outters and gutshots. By keeping the pot small I can force my opponents into incorrect calls and raises. I also get the chance to bet/3bet the flop when I hit an ace or jack and check fold when I miss. Eliminating BB is nice but I don't know how often I do that. He's getting 6:1 to call and w/the unlikley LRR, he's almost certainly going to call w/most of his decent hands so the only ones I'm eliminating are the bottom end of his range which I'm not too concerned about. Change the line to 1 limper and its an easy raise, 2 limpers I prolly do it but I have to think about it, more than that and I don't like a raise.
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#8
09-16-2007, 11:13 PM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like raising big unsuited cards out the the blinds pf when there are a few limpers and I usually only raise AK or AQ. If I hit the flop, it will likley be a 1 pair hand which is not a monster multiway. [/ QUOTE ] I used to think like you did. I used to limp in, but now I like raising for value. Of course this depends on the calibre of opposition already in. In addition to it at least being a little EV+, it will prevent opposition from pinning down your hand to AK, which is most likely to be the case from what I'm reading. [ QUOTE ] Eliminating BB is nice but I don't know how often I do that. He's getting 6:1 to call and w/the unlikley LRR, he's almost certainly going to call w/most of his decent hands [/ QUOTE ] At the time you first see AJo, he's highly likely to have junk, so make him pay to stay. Don't let a random hand in. If he calls, at least he's defining his hand somewhat. [ QUOTE ] On top of that I'm going to tie people to the pot and allow them to correctly draw to their 5 outters and gutshots. [/ QUOTE ] Play poker. Don't pay off if someone hits. Be ready to check-fold if you don't hit the flop. Make someone pay that additional one small bet just for the right to see a gutshot draw or 5 outer. I think this is easy value if you can play it correctly. If you feel the need to try to bully around unimproved after raising pre-flop like many players, then yes, I endorse just limping in. Garland
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#9
09-18-2007, 11:20 AM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
[ QUOTE ]
In addition to it at least being a little EV+, it will prevent opposition from pinning down your hand to AK, which is most likely to be the case from what I'm reading. [/ QUOTE ] Disguising my hand isn't a huge concern out of the sb in a game like this. Since there are so many limpers I've gotta play strait foward on the flop anyway so my hand is face up when I check the flop w/no ace or jack on the board. On top of that I think you gain a tremendous amount of value from being able to c/r the field if you hit top pair. This makes up for some of the lost EV preflop [ QUOTE ] At the time you first see AJo, he's highly likely to have junk, so make him pay to stay. Don't let a random hand in. If he calls, at least he's defining his hand somewhat. [/ QUOTE ] I dunno. I just feel like I can make more postflop by giving up a slight edge prefop. [ QUOTE ] Play poker. Don't pay off if someone hits. Be ready to check-fold if you don't hit the flop. Make someone pay that additional one small bet just for the right to see a gutshot draw or 5 outer. I think this is easy value if you can play it correctly. If you feel the need to try to bully around unimproved after raising pre-flop like many players, then yes, I endorse just limping in. [/ QUOTE ] When the the pot is going to be 5 way pf, there's not much you can do post flop. You bet if you have a hand check if you don't. Since your not winning unimproved and you'll have trouble pushing people off hands, I just don't see much difference in raising pf vs limping in this particular situation. If we're talking a 3 way pot then I raise 100% of the time.
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#10
09-18-2007, 11:40 AM
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Re: I got a Pair and Flush draw a pair and a flush draw
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why didn't you checkraise the river/ [/ QUOTE ] I thought he was the type to free showdown me. I'd watched him raise bottom pair on the flop bet the turn and check the river. I've also seen him bet fold so I was afraid he might pull that trick outta the bag and I'd puke if the river went check check. [/ QUOTE ] so why not 3bet the turn? or am i crazy?
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