Can't isolate so why not cc?

[ssmallz]

Borg 20/40, my image is that I've been playing tight, running ok but prolly down a bit. I've been showing down only strong hands so far, folding a lot, and my opponents prolly see me as someone who doesn't bluff much.

Hijack raises, he's a borg 20/40 regular, 60 y/o white guy who is pretty typical weak tight but gets kinda spazzy w/his raising hands pf. I've watched him raise T5 both offsuit and suited before and while he is kinda spazzy pf, doesn't seem to be anything but strait foward post flop. Raises when he has the goods checks when he don't.

CO, an awful player loves to cc w/all kinds of crap and frequently open limps on the button, cold calls

I'm otb w/Ah9h, w/out CO this is an easy 3bet but w/CO in the hand I decide to cc and see a flop. Who 3 bets here? Who folds? Who cc's?

sb and bb come along b/c thats what they do

Flop AsJc4s

HJ bets out, CO calls, I call, bb calls

My thoughts: Even if I raise I can't get it HU. My hand really isn't that good and theres a ton of cards that can come on the turn that I hate so I don't wanna invest too much in this pot untill I see a safe turn

Turn 6h

HJ bets, co calls, I raise

My thoughts: HJ might have a bigger ace, he is certainly weak tight enough to consider laying it down and theres a decent chance he actually will. This pot is big and if I can get him to lay down that is huge +EV. If I call here and he indeed has a big ace, 1 bet is going in on the river regardless b/c if he bets I'll call one and if he checks I'm going to value bet hoping he pays off w/KK or QQ or that the other guy has a weaker ace. So if I raise the turn, its a free showdown play b/c HJ won't 3bet unless I'm drawing stone cold dead. I plan on betting the river only if a 9 hits that doesn't complete a flush draw.

Thoughts?

[Carmine]

Smallz your plan seems solid to me. My concerns are how often HJ will lay down a better Ace. I would have to assume that given your read that he is straightforward postflop he has at least TP/PBK(probably better kicker?) when he leads the turn into four players(would he be in bet/fold mode w/KK here?).

Given that you have not mentioned considering folding the river if you just called the turn and HJ leads again. Which from a weak-tight straightforward player has to mean we're beat quite often then your line seems best. We collect the extra bets from the draws and maybe from CO with a worse TP hand. Might get the best hand to actually fold, which probably only has to happen about 15% of the time (w/o doing the math for this pot size). Give our image and read and the fact it is a multiway hand making the raise more legit I think we should hit that number.

[Carmine]

Oh, I forgot to address PF in my previous post. Considering HJ's wide range in that spot and weak-tight read and the bad CO I prefer a raise but it is close for me (ATs is without question)

[ssmallz]

[ QUOTE ]
Smallz your plan seems solid to me. My concerns are how often HJ will lay down a better Ace. I would have to assume that given your read that he is straightforward postflop he has at least TP/PBK(probably better kicker?) when he leads the turn into four players(would he be in bet/fold mode w/KK here?).

Given that you have not mentioned considering folding the river if you just called the turn and HJ leads again. Which from a weak-tight straightforward player has to mean we're beat quite often then your line seems best. We collect the extra bets from the draws and maybe from CO with a worse TP hand. Might get the best hand to actually fold, which probably only has to happen about 15% of the time (w/o doing the math for this pot size). Give our image and read and the fact it is a multiway hand making the raise more legit I think we should hit that number.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't wanna lay down in pot this big b/c this guy may be capable of betting a worse ace on the river, unlikley but possible. The pot is also big enough where I feel I have to make the crying call just in case on the river if it bricks off

[Jeffage]

I would three-bet preflop since there is a decent chance you have the best hand and can probably isolate with position against two morons.

As you played it, I would definitely raise the flop since CO will likely cont bet this ace-high board and there are straight and flush draws you'd like to charge if you're ahead. Also, how the others respond to your raise will give you a lot of information you can use when the bets double.

Ok, so you missed the flop raise. Now CO, who you described as fit or fold postflop, still is betting and CO still is calling and you are raising? I don't like it so much bc there is a decent chance he has a strong hand like a good ace which he won't fold or AJ which he will probably 3-pop. If I played the flop like you, I'm not sure what I'd do but maybe I'd call the turn and call (but not overcall) the river.

Jeff

[n.s.]

I like the PF call, for the reasons you mentioned and also because it will make the flop easier to play, imo. It's close though and I could see 3-betting as well.

On the flop, I think you have to raise. It's not a good spot to wait for the turn, because the pot isn't enormous, the board isn't that scary, you've only got the blinds behind you, HJ will often check the turn (unless he's got you beat), and you could save money if you are behind and find out now.

I wouldn't worry so much about whether or not you can get it heads-up with HJ - if CO is as bad as you say, then he's just dead money and you've most likely got him crushed. Keeping him in could be a good thing, since he'll pad the pot and also keep HJ honest because it's a protected pot (although it sounds like HJ isn't tricky anyway, so maybe that's not a concern).

[ssmallz]

[ QUOTE ]
I would three-bet preflop since there is a decent chance you have the best hand and can probably isolate with position against two morons.

As you played it, I would definitely raise the flop since CO will likely cont bet this ace-high board and there are straight and flush draws you'd like to charge if you're ahead. Also, how the others respond to your raise will give you a lot of information you can use when the bets double.

Ok, so you missed the flop raise. Now CO, who you described as fit or fold postflop, still is betting and CO still is calling and you are raising? I don't like it so much bc there is a decent chance he has a strong hand like a good ace which he won't fold or AJ which he will probably 3-pop. If I played the flop like you, I'm not sure what I'd do but maybe I'd call the turn and call (but not overcall) the river.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't think I ever get this weak tighty to lay down AQ/AK b/c in his mind a turn raise means 1 pair no good? I'm not too concerned when I get 3 bet b/c I know I'm drawing stone cold dead the majority of the time to a set or AJ. Also, HJ could certainly be c betting A8, A7, or A5 and it is certainly in his pfr range.

I definatly think I screwed up the flop though, I was just so afraid of seeing another spade come down and the think "now what?"

[NinaWilliams]

I dont think cold calling is pf is awful or anything, but IMO 3 betting is superior for value and to knock out the button and blinds in order to play 3 way with a strong hand an position.

[ssmallz]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think cold calling is pf is awful or anything, but IMO 3 betting is superior for value and to knock out the button and blinds in order to play 3 way with a strong hand an position.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 betting for value makes sense but I am the button so I already have position

[NinaWilliams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think cold calling is pf is awful or anything, but IMO 3 betting is superior for value and to knock out the button and blinds in order to play 3 way with a strong hand an position.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 betting for value makes sense but I am the button so I already have position

[/ QUOTE ]

oops, i read that you were co for some reason.