16: Bubble SnG standard right?

[ymu]

[ QUOTE ]
If the chip leader raises to 2085 so that we are all-in to call, and we have 0 FE, would you guys still call with TT? This page suggests that if we are 3rd on the bubble, and the chip leader puts us all in, we call only with QQ+.

And in the OP, since the chip leader is pretty much committed to our stack, wouldn't we just fold TT?

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a completely different hand. It has a microstack in it. We would be silly to risk all our chips when a microstack is likely to bust soon.

This hand is rather different. Noone is short enough to justify a super tight fold, and the raiser probably has a different range.

Give him a range and check it with ICM. You can't just say "QQ+ if you're 3rd on the bubble". It doesn't work like that.

[alex-star]

Shove PF. As played, shove the flop too - you're pot committed.

[johnnyknish]

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Button (t6850)
SB (t2265)
Hero (t2860)
UTG (t1525)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1050</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t750.

Flop: (t2250) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1810 (All-In)</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: t4060


this is why i like the stop n go

flame away telling me i should have folded because im second in chips and that was -ev for me because it probably is but the button had been aggro with a loose preflop caling range and a nitty after the flop one

[ymu]

Stop'n'go with a medium PP against an aggro big stack is one of my faves.

I think the 77 hand is fine with that read. If big stack is bad and aggro preflop, shortie has the best position on the table to make up some chips, which may not take long with these blinds. And shortie ain't that short to start with.

There is a big difference between this and the TT in the OP - you have a near PSB left whereas the OP is offering 3:1 on the flop.

Having said that, I agree with those that like the stop'n'go in the OP - it's worth not getting that extra 1000 chips if it means he only gets to see 3 cards, and let's face it, it will hardly ever make any difference so we might as well be the ones putting pressure on.

[Austiger]

For whomever suggested I was crazy for suggesting folding AK:

Assuming villain is pushing top 40%:

Hand 0: 66.071% 65.72% 00.35% 561508426 3031090.00 { ThTs }
Hand 1: 33.929% 33.57% 00.35% 286869090 3031090.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T9s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, JTo }

Hand 0: 68.756% 68.41% 00.35% 582166462 2958295.00 { JhJs }
Hand 1: 31.244% 30.90% 00.35% 262932036 2958295.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T9s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, JTo }

Hand 0: 65.913% 63.95% 01.96% 478535576 14674282.00 { AhKs }
Hand 1: 34.087% 32.13% 01.96% 240392708 14674282.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T9s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, JTo }

Hand 0: 67.472% 65.61% 01.86% 490920788 13953686.00 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 32.528% 30.66% 01.86% 229448688 13953686.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T9s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, JTo }

If you add a few suited connectors to make it 45%:


Hand 0: 66.987% 65.34% 01.65% 565022274 14225442.00 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 33.013% 31.37% 01.65% 271240362 14225442.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o }

Hand 0: 65.351% 63.62% 01.73% 550172853 14927765.00 { AsKh }
Hand 1: 34.649% 32.92% 01.73% 284685137 14927765.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o }

Hand 0: 70.277% 69.94% 00.34% 669416334 3262700.00 { JhJs }
Hand 1: 29.723% 29.38% 00.34% 281236202 3262700.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o }


Hand 0: 67.584% 67.23% 00.36% 643472004 3425991.00 { ThTs }
Hand 1: 32.416% 32.06% 00.36% 306853950 3425991.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o }

Cliff notes:

vs. top 40%:
JJ&gt;AKs&gt;TT&gt;AK

vs. top 45%:
JJ&gt;TT&gt;AKs&gt;AK

AK and TT are both folds IMO.

[Kevin8423]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't see why this is way off, you will have a tough time at this game. He is getting 3:1 so you want him to fold this [censored] in a cash game, SNG, MTT...anything that isn't a loser takes all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know what this means, its pretty clear getting a fold pf is the best case scenario with free chips without a risk to your tournament life. I don't know that their flop folding range to your SnG is going to make it better than just getting it in preflop due to the fact that they only fold out hands that are drawing to the last two cards with one or two overs to your TT. If their folding range matches up with the calculations you are making then I guess its a SnG..

[fluorescenthippo]

a stop and go &gt; shove pf. if he has a hand like QJ is he 25% to win. he is getting 3 to 1 to call. so yes its a -ev call for him so cEV wise we want him to call. but its the bubble and cEV != $EV. you can easily prove with ICM that if he has a hand like QJ on this flop you want him to fold