Is TAG ever not optimal?

[djshawk]

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently so thought I'd make a post about it here. Are there situations where playing with a TAG style isn't optimal? I have very nitty stats around 15/11 and I'm trying to work out if this is down to table conditions or me just being nitty.

I regularly have 3 or 4 people with a vpip of 40+ at my table, of course I try and sit with them to my right but that's not always possible. I tried playing more hands and being more aggressive but typically my pf raise would get called and so would my cbet making it very difficult to continue far post flop still holding A high. Since noting this I've started overlimping a lot of hands in late pos (I'll still never open limp) and not cbetting a lot of the time when I miss the flop. I'll still try to isolate the bad players if I have position and a decent hand preflop so it's not all overlimping, but stuff like small sc, Axs, small pp I often overlimp.

Unless I've got TAGs in the blinds the range of hands I'll attempt to steal with isn't that big. When I've got tighter players in the blinds I'll happily steal with any two, run bluffs if I think they look genuine etc.

Another thing that bothers me a bit is my low W$WSF, it's currently around 35-37. I attribute this to getting a lot of free flops from the bb which I check/fold routinely, and also not cbetting a massive amount (~50%).

Does this sound reasonable or should I be looknig to open up to a 20/18 style regardless?

[TheLemonShark]

Stakes? Sample size? Winrate?

[djshawk]

28k hands of nl50 ~3.5bb/100
20k hands of nl100 ~2bb/100

so small sample but it just feels like pushing harder will make me lose more when I'm behind rather than making them fold.

[TheLemonShark]

Well you could definately improve that winrate, so even if tag might not be optimal, I don't think your style is optimal either.

The question is if there even is an optimal strategy...

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is if there even is an optimal strategy...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, 1st step is to see your opponents cards.

[TheLemonShark]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The question is if there even is an optimal strategy...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, 1st step is to see your opponents cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. In order to play optimal, every play you make would have to be the same of that which you would do if you knew the opponents hole cards. And if you could see the holecards and didn't have to avoid "getting caught" you would undisputably play the vast majority of your hands. From this we derive that in an optimal strategy you would play pretty much every hand...

[HoldEmNewby]

I don't think playing a TAG style is popular because it is optimal (It rarely ever is); however, if played well it is usually, if not always +EV.

[TheLemonShark]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think playing a TAG style is popular because it is optimal (It rarely ever is); however, if played well it is usually, if not always +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said.

[johnnybeef]

Look, lag tag, meow chow, chow [censored] meow. Integrate your game. Play according to your image. If you are nitty, you are going to be able to steal more pots, if you are a lag, you will get more value on your big hands. Both styles work if you play well post flop. Bob Ciaffone wrote an excellent essay on the subject in Improve Your Poker. Check it out if you are interested.

[sh58]

you do realise that when they call your Cbets you often still have the best hand, don't you?

they don't hit the flop any more than you do. you just need to double barell more postflop and isolate more preflop.

sounds like you are a bit scared to play pots against these loons. the way to make money in this game is to get involved in alot of hands with bad players.

to make even more money do the above but with positon and initiative