Extracting value from mid 2-pair

[HoneyBadger]

This flop is not a good call, you do NOT have 5 outs, more like 3-4, plus it might be raised in which case it's horrible. (which is very likely, since there's an ace, and someone is very likely to have an ace in this pot. That, and there's the RIO issue. Are you happy with the T on the turn? Cap it?)

[gobbledygeek]

[ QUOTE ]
This flop is not a good call, you do NOT have 5 outs, more like 3-4, plus it might be raised in which case it's horrible. (which is very likely, since there's an ace, and someone is very likely to have an ace in this pot. That, and there's the RIO issue. Are you happy with the T on the turn? Cap it?)

[/ QUOTE ]

If we simply checked the flop we'd be getting 12:1 with only one person left to act behind us. Even with discounted outs, isn't this still a fairly easy call?

[synbad13]

No one will value your PF raise and flop bet as strong. If they have a piece, they're calling or raising on the flop - and your pair of 7's probably isn't best.
I would check/call the flop (you have a drawing hand at this point, no reason to put extra money in there... you're image is already established by this point).


I like a C/R on the turn. CO almost certainly has an ace and will be betting for value (in his eyes) very very often.

I would also lead almost any non-ace/duece river.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
I make these raises occassionally to loosen up my ultra-nitty fit-or-fold image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone want to comment on this?

[marchron]

No. .50/1 players at Stars are notorious for their keen observational skills and ability to read hands.

NOTORIOUS, I TELLS YA.

[HoneyBadger]

[ QUOTE ]

If we simply checked the flop we'd be getting 12:1 with only one person left to act behind us. Even with discounted outs, isn't this still a fairly easy call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant not a bet actually. In that situation of being 2nd last to act and only one bet I might call. But it's still close. I'm counting between 3 and 4 outs, so that means I need between 11-15:1 or so. 12:1 is just about even, and I'm not so excited about the IO because of the RIO (nice rhyme)

[Bob T.]

[ QUOTE ]
Please ignore preflop, because "fold preflop" makes for a short discussion. I make these raises occassionally to loosen up my ultra-nitty fit-or-fold image.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think that this is the most interesting play of the hand. But I think your approach is all wrong here, although the play might not be.

It is not your image that you should be concerned with, it is your opponents image that makes, or breaks the play.

If you have tight opponets still to act, I make this raise a lot of times, because I have a number of ways to win.

1 - I might win the blinds.
2 - I might hit the flop, and have the best hand.
3 - I might miss the flop, but combined with my preflop raise, and the flop, it might look like I have the best hand, and I might win with a continuation bet.
4 - I might miss the flop, but my tight opponent who called in the BB, might also have missed the flop, and a flop bet will win the hand.

Anyway, the key, isn't what my image is, but what you know about the players left in the hand. The best case, is that you have a lot of very tight players left to act, and you will either win outright, or likely get it headsup, with an opponent who has a predilection to folding to your flop action.

On the other side, if you have a very loose showdown monkey left to act, this is a HORRIBLE play, because you have very little showdown value with this hand, and you are going to be playing a weak hand, Out of position, against a hard to read player.

[HoneyBadger]

I agree with Bob. I must confess I also make this play a lot when the table is very (weak) tight; T7s can be good enough to raise in that case. Also, you might win big as they never put you on T7.

[anotherFliplost]

Well, I knew from previous hands that the flop raiser was on a mid-strong A. It was unlikely that he'd call a raise with 22 and only one cold-caller ahead, and he would've reraised AA or AK. The only hands I was worried about from him were 77, A7, or AT...A8-AQ were all possible. As for the other players, they could've been calling the flop bets with 44, Q2 or A7 (not an exaggeration). I gave myself 4 outs once CO raised (discounting the T's a bit), but maybe 3 outs is a better estimate.

A flop three-bet from the player between myself and CO was pretty much an impossibility, unless he had a set. He liked to call.

I'm not excusing preflop...I knew it was bad as soon as I did it. But folding the flop there would have been bad, unless I check-folded to two bets (where that one of those bets could be from a hand like Q2 or 44).

Ben, Marchon, I do have a tight-nitty image. It follows me everywhere. Thanks for the comments, Bob. I will try to refrain from getting silly with SGs at call-monkey tables in the future.

BTW, this hand was great for my image. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[James.]

like a snowball rolling down a hill...