comments on all streets

[Elbie]

Reads: SB No reads. BB is basically a loose callingstation, Sometimes he gives up on turn or river, sometimes he calls down. I've seen him donk into a preflop raiser a couple of times with top or second pair.

The Hand:

I'm in CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

All fold to me, I raise, button folds, sb and bb both call.

Flop comes 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sb checks, bb donks, I raise, both call.

Turn J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

sb checks, bb checks, I bet, sb folds, bb calls

River 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

bb checks, I ??

[KitCloudkicker]

flop raise is meh

check riv

[scpi10]

If your read is he donks top pair or second pair, I would just call the flop rather than raise.
I would bet the turn and check behind when the 4th [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hit

[Smurph64]

preflop obviously fine

flop call the donker
Turn likely he bets out and you get to raise.
River bet/fold

[HouseCalls]

Look at it this way - assuming ace high is no good you have 6 outs which gives you 24 percent equity on the flop. You need both players to fold 9 percent of the time just to reach your fair share equity of 33 percent. Against theses guys that ain't happening so just call.

I b/f the river. I'm pretty sure this is +EV vs LP villains as long as you can make the fold'

[DBSpecial]

Not sure about b/f on the river. Read on BB is that he's a loose calling station. If we could be more confident of him folding a better hand (like a baby diamond) it would be worth it, but I think he calls with all better hands and folds all worse hands.

[cmcneilly]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure about b/f on the river. Read on BB is that he's a loose calling station. If we could be more confident of him folding a better hand (like a baby diamond) it would be worth it, but I think he calls with all better hands and folds all worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's a calling station, this would be a bet for value. You aren't trying to get a better hand to fold, you are trying to get a lesser hand to call. About the only better hands out there are flushes, and they aren't going to fold.

The raise on the flop is not so good, as others have said.

[Elbie]

Sofar everybody thinks that on the flop I should call, not raise. Maybe you are right. This is one of the streets I am unsure about. Your arguments for just calling are all understandable. My arguments for raising are:

I can possibly fold sb, and if he has a gutshot that may be good. That was not my main reason though. I was pretty convinced that I was bet into by BB with a pair of 6s or 8s. If I can fold sb, it will be easier for me to bet a K or a Q on the turn and maybe scare BB to fold. Maybe it is better to keep sb in if he happens to have Ax or some other crap. (And he didn't fold to my flopraise, did he)? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

On the turn there is already a 3 flush on the board. My bet is a no-brainer?!

On the river. Two 2+2ers advice check/call, two bet/fold [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Can I ever fold a low diamond with a bet? If BB doesn't have a diamond, will he ever call a bet?

[DBSpecial]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure about b/f on the river. Read on BB is that he's a loose calling station. If we could be more confident of him folding a better hand (like a baby diamond) it would be worth it, but I think he calls with all better hands and folds all worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he's a calling station, this would be a bet for value. You aren't trying to get a better hand to fold, you are trying to get a lesser hand to call. About the only better hands out there are flushes, and they aren't going to fold.

The raise on the flop is not so good, as others have said.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is any player, even a calling station, going to call a bet with worse than top pair on this board? Bear in mind that 'sometimes he gives up on the turn or river.' Even if he gives up less often than he should, this is surely one of the situations he does fold when behind.

[Point Blank]

raise the flop in this spot if helps
like if your Jack outs completed a gut shot, or something

why you want to raise (you aren't likely ahead, and wont get buddy to fold any hand) ... what hands do you think SB will call one with that effects your hand enough to waste another bet

just don't 'free card the guy' ... the flop just isn't big enough and this play is over used

also consider the 'very likely' scenario that you are reverse dominated

and check the river unless you have an actual read that says this guy can play this way with really really bad hands ... and shows them down on terrible boards
and if you do bet (you must fold to a raise) ... that's the bad part of betting

<font color="red">EDIT</font>
[ QUOTE ]
can possibly fold sb, and if he has a gutshot that may be good

[/ QUOTE ]
you care about a gut shot why (you aren't ahead??)

[ QUOTE ]
I was pretty convinced that I was bet into by BB with a pair of 6s or 8s. If I can fold sb, it will be easier for me to bet a K or a Q on the turn and maybe scare BB to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
lesson one to +EV-land
don't ever bluff a calling station

[ QUOTE ]
an I ever fold a low diamond with a bet? If BB doesn't have a diamond, will he ever call a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
as stated above ... you need an actual read