NL50 - KK 3bet pf, unsure about the river

[Kevin8423]

The button is 24/20/5 over about 1k hands.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $50.80
BB: $69.65
UTG: $89.30
Hero (CO): $79.75
BTN: $81.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $7.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20.00</font>, BTN calls $13.00

Flop: ($40.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($40.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $23.00</font>, BTN calls $23.00

River: ($86.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

[Kevin8423]

bump

[mookboi]

I bet flop.

[nitramee]

Betting river is good imo, we can get value from weaker hands here.Flop and turn are fine.

[Labarde]

Why did you check the flop?

[Kevin8423]

We fold out a lot of worse hands by betting the flop hard, better hands will be calling and raising. Also because we are so deep I think its better to keep the pot controlled and see the turn. I think that flop helps a good portion of his range too.

[Chomp]

I think I play this exactly the same:

&gt; Preflop 4b is good...AA becomes somewhat less likely as he'd probably 5b push it.

&gt; Flop chk allows villain bet QQ/AK and we probably should shove over him if he does indeed bet...and if he has JJ, meh, cooler, we have little option but to felt if he bets. But he doesn't bet. So after he chks flop, hello QQ/AK/maybe JJ/idiotic TT/even more idiotic AJ.

&gt; Hero vbs turn...we get value from QQ/AK...AA/JJ now very unlikely given preflop/flop/turn action.

&gt; Hero chks river as it's hard to see villain calling shove with QQ or AK. We also allow him bluff-shove these hands...I'd be pretty sure a shove = BS here. If he bets smaller, we probably have to call that. As for hero vb'ing - good players probably put one in. I don't, cause I suck.

I'd be pretty sure villain has QQ here. If he has AJ he is a moron.

Was that your thinking OP?

[Daniel LeClaire]

[ QUOTE ]
We fold out a lot of worse hands by betting the flop hard, better hands will be calling and raising. Also because we are so deep I think its better to keep the pot controlled and see the turn. I think that flop helps a good portion of his range too.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP don't take my following post personally. There is just a lot of things in this post that I see constantly in uNL and I can't take it anymore.

I'm so tired of reading 'worse hands fold, better hands call'. I swear this is the most misused phrase in uNL. People suck, they call with worse all the time. And this hand is certainly not the time to apply it.

And checking for pot control? After you 4 bet pf pot control is out the window. You have $60 left and the pot is already $40! You aren't deep enough to check this flop. Not too mention you are OOP so how are you controlling the pot if villain bets?

And what are you hoping for villain to hit to catch up and be able to call a bet? Catch his two or 3 outer? If he does your beat. Not too mention how fishy 4 betting and then checking looks.

I 4 bet bigger pf. You gave him over 2-1. I bet the flop. As played not sure how you can bet river. You don't think he calls with worse on the flop, but he will call a big turn bet and river bet when a scary card hits? Does that make sense?

[Ramana]

Bet flop, shove turn. It's that simple. No need for tricky play at NL50.

[Kevin8423]

I don't see any reason for betting bigger preflop, the point is to get him to continue with worse hands, not to 5bet AA and fold everything else.

As for each street, my play took into account the given range he was likely to have.

Preflop it isn't very likely for him to be holding AA, probably not even KK so something like TT-QQ,AJ which is probably even a bit to wide.

For us this flop sucks, now if we bet our hand becomes pretty transparent, QQ and if were lucky AJ will continue and we lose to TT,JJ, and AA. With a check its likely that QQ and AJ will bet, maybe even AK with a straight or flush draw, I think we have to shove over a bet here because of how many worse hands would bet as compared to what would call if we bet instead.

Villain checks to the turn, now JJ and TT are unlikely, so when we make a strong bet here QQ and AJ will call, possibly even AK.

I don't really know about the river, mainly why I posted the hand. My reasoning was that AJ hit, and some oddly played set will get it in and win. AK missed so it won't call a bet. So a shove might get a call from QQ, which is even not guaranteed.

The point to not just getting it in as quickly as possible is that the flop sucked after the pf betting, and by checking we are able to draw in more worse hands and figure out where we stand much more easily if the villain checks like what happened in this hand.