Winrate Limit/NL discussion

[Schwatt]

I am starting to think that maybe I am just not good enough to beat SH limit anymore(for any meaningful amount anyway).

After 400k hands this year, my winrate is a dismal 0.3BB/100. With all of the FPP bonuses and such, I am about even with last year, but not winning at poker is just really disheartening. Last year I played about 1/3 as many hands as I have already played this year.

I am thinking about making the switch to no-limit. I have played a couple of thousand hands at NL this year, but I have really no idea what to expect.

I really have no idea about NL winrates, If someone asked me about limit winrates I would say a really good player probably makes ~1 BB/100 nowadays. An OK player(still pretty good) probably makes about 0.25-0.5 BB/100.

A far cry from the 2-3BB/100 most of us were making last year.

But I have no idea when it comes to NL.
What is a good winrate? What is an Ok winrate?

I am thinking if I am in the OK range I will be way ahead of where I am currently at SH limit.

Is SH NL similar to Limit SH? (high varience?)

Some of you may know that I play a lot of tables, and I believe I could easily play as many table of no-limit as I do now. It seems there is very little post flop play (ie fold or all in on the flop, sometimes a turn before heavy action). I realize I am being simplistic here, but you other limit players know what I mean. However, if 6-max is better, that is the route I will try.

Where should I start? I have played 25NL-100NL but not nearly enough hands to justify anything.

I think I am a pretty good SH and FR limit player, so what level would equate to a good chance of making >$25/hr?

I would have asked this in the NL forum but they kinda seem like morans( ZOMG min-bet loolz!, move to 400NL immediately, etc)

Thanks in advance.

[NinaWilliams]

SH NL has less variance than limit, and ive heard its easier to play more tables. All in all, id say there probably is more money in NL, but I find it extremely boring.

[gucci111]

interesting topic.
I have a winrate of 1,1 BB / 100 Hands at Short Handed Limit. With all the rakebacks it is probably at the Level of 2 BB / 100.

what do others have ?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone asked me about limit winrates I would say a really good player probably makes ~1 BB/100 nowadays. An OK player(still pretty good) probably makes about 0.25-0.5 BB/100.

A far cry from the 2-3BB/100 most of us were making last year.

[/ QUOTE ]
Layoff the Koolaid. Most SSSH'ers were never making 2-3 BB/100.

Really good players are still making good money but most players aren't really good.

Why aren't you dropping down in limits? Morons aside, anyone can be a consistent winner at poker. All you have to do is understand the basics, be honest about your limitations whatever they may be, and select games you can beat.

Playing too high and accepting a near-zero winrate for 400K hands is a choice you made. The same applies to playing too many tables if that is your real issue.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
SH NL has less variance than limit, and ive heard its easier to play more tables. All in all, id say there probably is more money in NL, but I find it extremely boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I suck at NL, and I made ~ 10 ptbb/100 at NL 100 my first ~ 10k hands. I ran a little lucky (according to pokerev, I was up about 1 ptbb/100 on my all in hands over expecation), but still...

And it was in fact deathly boring, even 10-12 tabling. I really think any reasonably winning SH LHE player could easily beat at least up to NL100 for a decent amount - as I continue to play more NL, I think I'm going to try fewer tables at NL200-400.

That said, I still find SH 6-max pretty beatable. I don't have my DB in front of me (and I don't think it would matter since my PT files are all over the place as I haven't got my old DB in sync with the new box yet) but I'm easily over 1.5 for the year. And with RB/Bonii, that gets pushed to well over 2.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
The same applies to playing too many tables if that is your real issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having played some with OP, I think this is more likely the problem than lack of skill.

[kaby]

I know numerous of Euro NL players that make 5PTBB/100.

Dunno what the 'standard' number is.

Also at low limit stakes (>25$ is like what? 6 tabling 2/4 6max for 2BB/100 including rakeback/bonuses - which is not hard to achieve - is more than 30$ an hour) I'm pretty sure you should be able to still get the 2PTBB/100 winrate.

Fwiw, I switched to NL but if I'm not making like 4PTBB/100 before rb/bonus at hopefully 9 tables I'm switching back to limit. No NL player I talked too had even the slightest remark about this goal so I think it's pretty realistic. Let's say 5PTBB/100 (including RB/boni) at NL50 on 9 tables, that's like 35$ an hour. So there's your calculation.

But TBH when you can't make >25$/h playing limit 6max including bonus/RB (and you've already played 400k hands this year) you really need to work on your game :/

Just imagine the $$$ you'd have now when you'd have played like 300k hands and spent the other 100k handplaying time on improving your game ;p

[Robin Foolz]

op,

background on myself. i've played over 600k limit hands, and before this year i had never played more than 2k hands of nl cash games.

this year: i picked up nl and i started winning right off the bat at nl25-nl50. without reading any books/articles/posts and without watching videos. then i moved to nl100 and continued doing well. after 57k hands i'm at 5.6ptbb/100. having so much limit exp really helped.

i have been studying the game more recently and have been watching videos and i feel i have improved greatly. my last 27k hands of nl i'm at 8.4ptbb/100.

so yes the lower nl limits seem to be very easy. i'm sure that if you put even a minimum amount of effort you'll make mucho dinero quickly.

one bit of advice: if they bet big, especially on turn/river, unless you have super duper read, don't call with lone pairs.

also, you'll be able to mimic a 1bb/100 2/4 limit player by running at around 5-6ptbb/100 at nl50. so yes, you can make $$$ quite comfortably at nl50 if your main game is 2/4 limit.

[sweetjazz]

I think moving to NL is a viable short-term option for any breakeven+ limit player. I'm not sure how good the NL games will last -- there are known theoretical reasons for why they should die faster than other games. But that assumes the same number of fish at all games, while clearly the fish are flocking to NLHE. So I definitely think it is a viable option for the next few years.

That said, I don't think limit games are quite as bad as people say they are. If you are willing to actively game select and really improve your game to the next level, I think they are still quite profitable. But it requires players to be versatile -- maybe today the HU games look good, maybe tomorrow it is the 6max games that are juicy, the next day it could be the full ring game where the fish are sitting.

[Heisenb3rg]

I honestly believe the games are still great if you excersice patience , site selection and game selection..

I see so many multi-tabling tags sitting at the worst tables ever and I dont understand how they make money...

The great advantage of being able to play a lot of games at a high level is the ability to GAME select as well as site/table select.

EG when the SH limit tables suck ass on stars 5/10 and 10/20 I go play HU limit on full tilt, or 1/2 NL on stars, or PLO... etc..

If your sole goal is to make money, then go to NL. It's much better and less stressful. I have a friend who is a 8 tabling 1/2 NL nit grinder on stars and he makes just as much as me when I have 4 tables of 5/10 and 10/20 SH limit.

Only catch is my swings are wayyyy wilder than his, and my games are much tougher. His graph over 150k hands is pretty much a straight line upwards.

I stay at SH limit cause it suits my inner poker spirit.
Constnatly be involved, pound on pots and see a lot of showdowns. Quite frankly, I love it, and it's fun. NL bores me.

I occasionally make big mistakes due to impulse/emotion, and NL really hurts you for this.. Limit limits your loss on a big mistake.