Donkey Test

[pzhon]

I really don't like the name of this test. It strongly discourages me from contributing. I'd like to point out that it is absurd for a test of whether someone is a donkey or not to include questions which rely on understanding the bankroll requirements of professional players or the reraising standards at NL $2000.

That a player is very aggressive widens his reraising range even though being tight narrows it. KK is not certain to be ahead, but it is well worth playing in this situation. I'd call and plan to check-raise all-in on most flops, possibly not Axx or QJx.

Players at NL $2000 are typically much more aggressive than players at NL $25 or NL $200. That's very important for deciding how KK compares with the players' ranges. It is very hard to find a correct fold preflop with KK in an aggressive game.

[cheburashka]

I hate these questions where we act like a total dork and then are put into ridiculous spots.

A solid tight aggressive player 3-betting from the BB is most likely on TT+, AK, and we are beat by 100% of that range. To make this call, you'd have to believe that BB is capable of 3-betting with KQs, which is the only holding that makes any type of sense at all.

[Davdob]

...

[Fiepoto]

I should point out that the test states that many times the hand will have been played poorly by (you). You are being asked to make the best play now, given the circumstance.

[Davdob]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to point out that it is absurd for a test of whether someone is a donkey or not to include questions which rely on understanding the bankroll requirements of professional players or the reraising standards at NL $2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. Still interesting debate topics in the context of discussion here, but hardly a test of being a "donkey."

[thoman8r]

[ QUOTE ]

You're right, 3 bet not 4 bet. But you also bring up another good point, that we are out of position against two pre-flop raisers, which strongly suggests fold to me.

While AA against KK is rare, it does happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it IS rare, which is why we can't just fold here. That's about as nitty as it gets. And again, the LP TAG's 3-bet range is a lot wider than just AA - probably more like JJ+, AQs+, AKo. And we *crush* that range, even when you include the UTG's likely holdings (which are probably similar, maybe add TT).

The more I think about it, the more sure I am that a small raise is the best option.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
But the river brings 4 card to a straight and you have to put in almost all your ramaining chips ($1100) for a pot that is $1400.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is about $2400 now -- but I still would fold. We only beat a bluff.

[Davdob]

The ... post above was my effort to construct a plausible sc3eario in 39 based on the pot odds. I couldnt do it.

[gedanken]

folding is easy as pie. There's only one draw out there, every possible scare card came, and villain is willing (eager) to felt his hand. He has an ace.

[gedanken]

[ QUOTE ]

That a player is very aggressive widens his reraising range even though being tight narrows it. KK is not certain to be ahead, but it is well worth playing in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to hear a dissenting opinion. I think folding is terrible here. There's $320 in the pot already, the opponents are tight, and we've got cowboys. What's the problem?

Chance that 1 of them has AA is still pretty small. Table is only 8-handed, so an aggressive UTG can have JJ+, AQs+, maybe AQo AJs, KQs. A lot of non-AA territory.

aggressive 3 bettor's range is at minimum QQ+, AKs.

We're way ahead!

with a small raise, 3bettor's whole range can call, and stack us on a favorable flop easily, while getting away if he doesn't improve, ick.

All in is too much. I did some math, and figured our EV would be neutral against 1 opponent with QQ+, AKo+, who always calls with AA and folds everything else. With UTG to worry about, we won't be so good.

I vote "raise".

They're not asking, but I guess I have to fold to a push. I think villains range at that point is pretty much AA, because we've shown no fear, and he's tight. We won't have odds to call, so we get to keep half our stack those times.