Knife VS Bat, who wins?

[mosta]

I pull this up weeks after the fact to see what resolution there might be. I personally think it's probably close to a draw. people with strong opinions on one side view that weapon as being immediately devastating. I think the evidence is probably that neither one is.

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I didn't read the whole discussion, but anyone saying a bat has no clue about street fighting. I took some Tae Kwon Do lessons ...On the other hand, one slash with a knife is going to cause some serious damage ...
Seriously though, if you disagree - you are an idiot.

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Yes, the "martial artists" have "proved" it. Interesting that tae kwon do isn't worth anything even for ufc tv fighting, much less fighting for you life. as soon as you see "I studied martial arts for x years, with knife training" you can almost ignore the post. My favorite are the martial arts "experts" who mention using a butterfly knife. Try stabbing a rump roast from the grocery store that doesn't even have bones in it with a butterfly knife. when you've sliced the insides of your fingers open and are no longer able to make a fist, retract all your posts.

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As a doc who has worked a fair amount in ERs I have to give my opinion of seeing the aftermath of BB and knife fights (although I can't say I recall a straightup bat vs knife fight).Knives are a very ineffective way to kill someone in a skirmish (we are not talking about sneaking behind them and cutting their throat or something). I would wager that for every 10 stabbings out there only one person actually dies from it. Maybe less. You have to get very lucky to kill someone in one or two stabs with a smallish knife. And the other thing about stab wounds is that the stabbee often doesnt even realize they are stabbed for a while, they are not even slowed down due to the adrenaline. Even if you managed to hit a major artery, the guy probably has over a minute until he is slowed down any appreciable amount.

A bat on the other hand has immediate results from the sheer force. A head shot is automatic gameover. A good bodyshot would also likely slow a guy down immediately. Even if you could simply hit the hand that holds the knife while he tries slashing you would probably win.

I just can't see a knife having the advantage.

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I'm surprized how long it took for a doctor to show up in this thread, because there are lots on this board. my college roommate did his ER residency at a public hosp. in the Bronx, and yeah guys quite commonly go a very long time with major stab wounds, on their feet.

why do you think when old ladies get raped and stabbed to death, they get stabbed 50 or more times? because after the first 20 wounds they're still fighting like hell. "stabby stabby with my butterfly knife in your belly and it's all over." lol.

one early post did mention statistics on stab mortality, but one of the "martial artists" "refuted" it in an impressive point by point attack. lol.

I leaned towards bat after the earlier thread b/c one guy said he'd seen people annihilated with bats. but the video of the robber undercuts that--though he is wearing a huge coat. I figure the knife probably can get some stabs, but knife guy is likely to end up in a permanent vegetative state while bat guy is on the way to the hospital to see if his cuts can be sewed up or he dies one or more days later. (I also think the knife guys underestimate the danger of dropping it, esp if that arm gets hit--bat guy is not going to choose to swipe at the empty hand.)

best strategy for knife guy is probably try to stab twice and then run. while knife guy is getting x-rays bat guy will be getting stitches.

[Jdanz]

I take knife hardcore.

I'm not a baseball player but i am a golfer. I'll give you a golfer's perspective on the eternal knife vvs bat debate.

Golf and baseball are very similar in a number of ways. You use a fairly awkward motion and a big stick with leverage to generate force at a specific point in an arc. This force is meant to be maximum at one very specific part of the "weapon" and a very precise instant during the swing.

The force generated by both a golfer and a baseball player involves tension and resistance. Neither player can make a swing with any sort of force without a backswing. Try it swing a baseball bat or a golf club without bringing it back first. Now try it while attempting a typical backswing aborting and then swinging again. It either takes a hell of a lot of time or SEVERELY limits the power of your stroke.

The vast majority of power in both swings comes from setting up tension while moving backwards and then releasing it in the through swing.

Now imagine a golfer or baseball players stance. The only point in the arc that comes close to optimal force is directly in front of the chest with a couple degrees error on either side. Imagine a baseball player trying to hit a ball directly in front of his left foot. You can't. You could turn towards your attacker but then you're leaving yourself completely exposed. Not to mention that he could during your swing move to the left or the right both of which would leave you connecting far from at peak force.

A baseball bat might have a 2.5-3ft advantage. One slightly larger than average step is 3ft. I know i use it to mark distance on a golf course. One running step is at least 5 ft. The time it takes to cover the bats effective range is fractions of a second.

The force of a bat as described before (like a golf club) is generated by the distance from the point of contact to the pivot. If you don't make contact in the sweet zone you simply won't be making effective use a of a bat.

Essentially none of this applies to a knife. Take a sharp knife, just push forward with no backswing to generate power. Pretty much equal effectiveness. Force doesn't matter the point of a sharp edge is that it is the opposite of blunt it cuts rather than delivers a forceful blow.

A bat hurts with force a knife with an edge.

The reason why i think a knife owns is because a baseball bat needs a venerable perfect storm of things to work out before it very quickly loses large amounts of force (its essential element). A knife blow just needs to land.

So how would this work in practice? well the first movement of a guy with a bat better be backwards. If a guy with a bat is moving towards you he simply cannot generate power. The only way is by moving forward with his legs while simultaneously moving his shoulders away to generate power for the swing. This is an awful position to be in. A knife fighter just moves in, the swing is likely completely ineffective (starting from terrible balance and really almost certainly not being anywhere near the "sweet" distance).

Really the guy will be backing away or holding his ground. Ok so knife guy is chilling with no fear at 5-6 feet, bat guy can't swing or really move without opening himself up terribly, as his balance is so important to that crucial first blow.

If i'm the knife guy i feint (sp?) towards the guy. He has two choices. Swing without a backswing, this has almost no power and i really think most people could accept this incredibly awkward blow and close. Or he could simultaneously move his shoulders back and into position to deliver a blow.

However as soon as he does this he either has to swing or go back to neutral (you can't just stay there, because your body will forcefully pull you back to neutral, that's where all the power comes from). Try pulling a golf club or baseball bat all the way back holding it and then swinging and see what i mean.

So he holds it feign feint again he begins coming forward move back, as soon as he doesn't go intot the full swing go for the kill.

He doesn't hold it, as soon as he begins to move forward without taking a real swing he's done, there is simply no way to get his balance and power back quick enough. He has to halt his forward momentum and [censored] back and then swing through. I really doubt it takes more than .2-.4 seconds to close the 2-3 feet to be inside his range.

The point isn't that you can't get a lot of power with a baseball bat, it's that getting that power (the backswing) leaves you incredibly vulnerable, you are at the mercy of the knife guy because you can't attack.

The knife guy just needs to get you ever so slightly off kilter and there is no way you can generate half the power you could have from a balanced stance.

The fact that the optimal force of a bat is at a certain distance (some number of feet away from your body), that it is a small area, and that making contact with any force requires a backswing combine to leave very little chance for people to deliver a blow with the amount of power a "baseball" swing can, in an act that is designed to give the batter perfect conditions to achieve maximum force.

yes a bat blow can be devastating, and a full swing would probably stop most opponents, but the window is so exceedingly small that timing would be all but impossible vs an unwilling opponent that doesn't have to just run straight at you.

Really the windup is what makes it essentially impossible from a pure physics standpoint.

[Mitch Evans]

Two fatass poker nerds- bat (maybe)
Two experts trained in martial arts- knife (easily)

I had this discussion with my instuctor many years ago only it was chucks vs knife. Anyone well trained in chucks would decimate Barry Bonds holding a bat. That is to say, chucks are a better weapon than a bat. He proved to me that a knife is superior to chucks without a bunch of talk either. So... knife, FTW.

[john voight]

This is why knife wins:

you guys overestimate the blows of a bat. I mean you are not gunna get a hard enough swing to make a 1 hit K.O. A blow anywhere besides knee/head will prolly only halt the actioin for a split second.

You need to take into account the speed of fights and the adrenalin. You need to be 10x more accurate with the bat. Basically if you dont get the KO, they knife will get close to you, and then it will be very difficult to get him off using your bat (most likely youll drop the bat and use your hands). When the knife has gotten past your first swing, he will most likely kill you.

So sure you will get a 1 hit KO 2/10 times, and then 1 or 2 other times you will get in more hits w/ the bat to win, but the other 6/10 times the knife will get through and kill you. YOU NEED TO GET THE KO to survive, if he gets through your dead.

I take knife all night.

[bkholdem]

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I take knife hardcore.

I'm not a baseball player but i am a golfer. I'll give you a golfer's perspective on the eternal knife vvs bat debate.

Golf and baseball are very similar in a number of ways. You use a fairly awkward motion and a big stick with leverage to generate force at a specific point in an arc. This force is meant to be maximum at one very specific part of the "weapon" and a very precise instant during the swing.

The force generated by both a golfer and a baseball player involves tension and resistance. Neither player can make a swing with any sort of force without a backswing. Try it swing a baseball bat or a golf club without bringing it back first. Now try it while attempting a typical backswing aborting and then swinging again. It either takes a hell of a lot of time or SEVERELY limits the power of your stroke.

The vast majority of power in both swings comes from setting up tension while moving backwards and then releasing it in the through swing.

Now imagine a golfer or baseball players stance. The only point in the arc that comes close to optimal force is directly in front of the chest with a couple degrees error on either side. Imagine a baseball player trying to hit a ball directly in front of his left foot. You can't. You could turn towards your attacker but then you're leaving yourself completely exposed. Not to mention that he could during your swing move to the left or the right both of which would leave you connecting far from at peak force.

A baseball bat might have a 2.5-3ft advantage. One slightly larger than average step is 3ft. I know i use it to mark distance on a golf course. One running step is at least 5 ft. The time it takes to cover the bats effective range is fractions of a second.

The force of a bat as described before (like a golf club) is generated by the distance from the point of contact to the pivot. If you don't make contact in the sweet zone you simply won't be making effective use a of a bat.

Essentially none of this applies to a knife. Take a sharp knife, just push forward with no backswing to generate power. Pretty much equal effectiveness. Force doesn't matter the point of a sharp edge is that it is the opposite of blunt it cuts rather than delivers a forceful blow.

A bat hurts with force a knife with an edge.

The reason why i think a knife owns is because a baseball bat needs a venerable perfect storm of things to work out before it very quickly loses large amounts of force (its essential element). A knife blow just needs to land.

So how would this work in practice? well the first movement of a guy with a bat better be backwards. If a guy with a bat is moving towards you he simply cannot generate power. The only way is by moving forward with his legs while simultaneously moving his shoulders away to generate power for the swing. This is an awful position to be in. A knife fighter just moves in, the swing is likely completely ineffective (starting from terrible balance and really almost certainly not being anywhere near the "sweet" distance).

Really the guy will be backing away or holding his ground. Ok so knife guy is chilling with no fear at 5-6 feet, bat guy can't swing or really move without opening himself up terribly, as his balance is so important to that crucial first blow.

If i'm the knife guy i feint (sp?) towards the guy. He has two choices. Swing without a backswing, this has almost no power and i really think most people could accept this incredibly awkward blow and close. Or he could simultaneously move his shoulders back and into position to deliver a blow.

However as soon as he does this he either has to swing or go back to neutral (you can't just stay there, because your body will forcefully pull you back to neutral, that's where all the power comes from). Try pulling a golf club or baseball bat all the way back holding it and then swinging and see what i mean.

So he holds it feign feint again he begins coming forward move back, as soon as he doesn't go intot the full swing go for the kill.

He doesn't hold it, as soon as he begins to move forward without taking a real swing he's done, there is simply no way to get his balance and power back quick enough. He has to halt his forward momentum and [censored] back and then swing through. I really doubt it takes more than .2-.4 seconds to close the 2-3 feet to be inside his range.

The point isn't that you can't get a lot of power with a baseball bat, it's that getting that power (the backswing) leaves you incredibly vulnerable, you are at the mercy of the knife guy because you can't attack.

The knife guy just needs to get you ever so slightly off kilter and there is no way you can generate half the power you could have from a balanced stance.

The fact that the optimal force of a bat is at a certain distance (some number of feet away from your body), that it is a small area, and that making contact with any force requires a backswing combine to leave very little chance for people to deliver a blow with the amount of power a "baseball" swing can, in an act that is designed to give the batter perfect conditions to achieve maximum force.

yes a bat blow can be devastating, and a full swing would probably stop most opponents, but the window is so exceedingly small that timing would be all but impossible vs an unwilling opponent that doesn't have to just run straight at you.

Really the windup is what makes it essentially impossible from a pure physics standpoint.

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Do you think there would be any merit in the bat guy holding the bat by the fat end and/or by both ends with the objective not being to deliver that big blow, but to defend. To break/wound an arm/hand or knock the knife from his opponent? I really liked your analysis above and would love to read a similar analysis wtih this different use of the bat.

[MacGuyV]

If I recall both of these weapons were inferior to the dropkick in 'Double Dragon'.

[Blarg]

Riiiiight... men stab old ladies they're raping 50 times because they HAVE to. mmm-hmmm That's one of the more amazing things I've ever read.

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(I also think the knife guys underestimate the danger of dropping it, esp if that arm gets hit--bat guy is not going to choose to swipe at the empty hand.)


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Mmm-hmm, guy swinging two-handed weapon is going to be able to pick and land on his target quicker than a guy with an essentially weightless weapon is able to switch it from one hand to another.

Okay, we're done here.

[ackbleh]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

This kind of settles the question about what happens if a major leaguer hits you with a bat, doesn't it? Jose Offerman charged the mound with a bat and started swinging. The catcher was hit IN THE HEAD and tried to keep playing. The pitcher was hit in the hand and broke just one finger. I don't think there's any doubt that the knife wielder would usually make it past the first and second swing.

[Fonkey123]

Thread deserves a bump, and I'll try to give my perspective.

I would take the knife and just charge directly at my bat-wielding self. It's pretty obvious the bat would get in a huge blow, and I would use my arm to take the impact.

I feel I could get one solid slash in on the mid section, and them just run/crawl whatever away, and wait for bat self to bleed to death.

And has anyone run the physics simulation for this. A standard bat swung at normal speeds, versus a 175 pound human lunging at 15 mph hit from the side. I can't imagine it would impact my momentum sideways to the extent that I miss bat self in the mid section entirely,

[poker_n00b]

it is a knife and it is not even close.