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#21
08-10-2007, 06:22 AM
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Re: I Am Innocent
1) If you are reading a book that makes an outrageous claim (I once knew a guy who had 39 heads and 4 arms! He lived till he was 175!), and there is no external evidence of this claim (the only proof of it is that the book says so), then it's still possible that the claim is true. However, it is orders of magnitude more likely that the author of the book was some combination of dishonest and deceiving, himself deceived, mistaken, minunderstood, speaking allegorically, or leveling you. Even if everything else written in the book "has never been proven false" (lol selective literal interpretationments). Does anyone disagree with this? If so, why don't you just go ahead and beleive 100% of what you read?
2) The claim that some guy rose from the dead is outrageous. So is the claim that some guy split a sea in half. And the fact that the book you read these claims in happens to be called the Bible (or maybe you read other outrageous claims in the Koran) doesn't change the above probabilities. 3) I (and DS) am not saying that these mircales didn't happen, but if you honestly had to set odds for their likelyhood, anyone who beleives they happened is probably more than a billion times too optimistic. 
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#22
08-10-2007, 10:20 AM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
If what you say is true, than Biblical miracles were reasonably likely to have happened. But whether miracles occur nowadays is not a subject that I claim expertise in. Nor was it the subject of my post. [/ QUOTE ] Well, now, "Jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich" is not one of the Gospel miracles I am familiar with. But OK, sticking with those in Scripture: What I say is correct, in that matter and energy do act in ways that science says is impossible according to natural law and very often associated with the ... call it "spiritual expressed intentions" of human beings. These events are recorded worldwide and occur as often to a Hindu as Christian, or any other group you can define as "religious." Does that mean Biblical miracles occurred? Which ones? The Bible being discussed as if it were some integrated whole is so antithetical to arriving at any reasonable conclusions. Did the actions in Job actually occur? I doubt it, Job, like Jonah, is a play. Jonah a partial one. Did the Red Sea part? Maybe Charleton Heston could do it, but it's unlikely God did - I admit God (tho' I do not claim to know what that is) could do it. But archeology and Biblical scholarship give us better answers. Did Jesus heal the blind? I'm sure He did - not the least because of the story of the man who was healed twice which reflects the experience of persons in modern times who have acquired sight for the first time as adults. I said I didn't know anything about math and boy, I was not kidding. I'm not sure how it works, using math to decide about these things, but I think at least, one must take each incident and look at it and decide just what kind of data it is before being able to assign it some place in an equation. But then, I will agree, I don't know enough to even express half a math opinion. -prax-
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#23
08-10-2007, 10:22 AM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
1) If you are reading a book that makes an outrageous claim (I once knew a guy who had 39 heads and 4 arms! He lived till he was 175!), and there is no external evidence of this claim .... [/ QUOTE ] If you are speaking to me, "external evidence" abounds. Read book. Get back to me.
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#25
08-10-2007, 01:00 PM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
Are you famliar with the Fatima miracle of 1917? I'm curious, if you are, what your throughts are about that incident. Thanks. [/ QUOTE ] You mean the actual incident, appearance and attendant phenomena? Or the prophecies or healings or what? Not trying to be evasive, it's just a big topic, what specifically are you thinking of?
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#27
08-10-2007, 02:38 PM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
I know of no Biblical miracle that didn't have God's testimony to some human(s) that He was the one doing the miracle. In other words, miracles didn't just happen out of the blue - they were done with a purpose and were identified as God's activity, usually by God Himself. [/ QUOTE ] The New Testament is relatively silent in regards to the miracles the Apostles did after Jesus was crucified. We do find that these miracles were very important, however, to give credence to the message the Apostles were preaching. [ QUOTE ] I know of no instance that God used a miracle to convert someone in the Bible. [/ QUOTE ] Indirectly. Jesus & the Apostles after him performed miracles to gain credibility to the message they were preaching, and therefore to convert people into followers of Christ. John 10: ================================================== ====== 22| Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23| and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24| The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25| Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26| but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27| My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28| I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29| My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30| I and the Father are one." 31| Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32| but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33| "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34| Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35| If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36| what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37| Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38| But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39| Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. ================================================== ====== John 14: ================================================== ====== 6| Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7| If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8| Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9| Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10| Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11| Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. ================================================== ====== 2 Corinthians 12: ================================================== ====== 11| I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12| The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance. ================================================== ======
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#28
08-10-2007, 03:11 PM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
Indirectly. Jesus & the Apostles after him performed miracles to gain credibility to the message they were preaching, and therefore to convert people into followers of Christ. [/ QUOTE ] Of course people should have believed when seeing the miracles. My point was, and you seem to agree, that the primary purpose of the miracles was to authenticate - Jesus as the Messiah, the apostles as having authority. Jesus criticized the Jews for seeking signs and the Greeks wisdom, though He also criticized those who saw the miracles and didn't believe. Given that general purpose of miracles in the Bible I don't think we can expect the same kind of miracle outside the Bible except when God makes an appearance, such as the Second Coming. Again, the Bible emphasizes that people ought to believe based on God's revelation in nature and in His Word.
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#29
08-10-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
Was anything that occurred a miracle? Did the little girl communicate with Mary? Did the sun do circles in the sky? [/ QUOTE ] You've read the book I see! The greatest proof of the miracle of the Sun is not what people say it did, but the fact that everyone stared at it for 10 minutes without going blind.
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#30
08-10-2007, 07:24 PM
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Re: I Am Innocent
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 1) If you are reading a book that makes an outrageous claim (I once knew a guy who had 39 heads and 4 arms! He lived till he was 175!), and there is no external evidence of this claim .... [/ QUOTE ] If you are speaking to me, "external evidence" abounds. Read book. Get back to me. [/ QUOTE ] You are definitely right that evidence changes probabilities. How about the ressurection? Got any evidence for that? Or just 1 book that says so?
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