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Old 12-01-2007, 10:07 AM
maca9 maca9 is offline
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Default Big 1 pair hands - Flop bet called....what now???? help

Hi

Just looking for some good advice regarding hand ranges for villian post flop - especially sets?


I guess I mean the typical situation when you raise 4xBB with AK/AQs or JJ+ etc and get called preflop.

Flop comes and you have either overpair or TPTK.

You then bet flop 2/3 to full pot etc and get called again.

At this point here what is good solid advice for noobs?

I know there won't be a simple answer - but just like cold calling with 72o isnt good poker preflop - I would really like to know how the good players handle these big pair hands once their decent sized flop bet is called?

Should you generally then go into check / call mode or check fold?

With all the people trying to hits sets on the flop and take stacks doing that how do the good players allow for this in their post flop decisions?

Surely part of any villians range who calls a flopbet is the pocket pair of any of the board.

Or do you have to play each hand as if no sets are there and if it happens that just bad luck?

or another way is how could you possibly put someone on pocket 2's on a Kh 8c 2s flop?

I know it will be simply a part villians range and maybe thats what i am getting wrong.


Or a better question might be:

How often would a PSB or similar bet be called on the flop and top pair still be ahead??

I know there won't be a % but would the good players say often / sometimes / or not much?


Sorry if this question is not able to be answered but i have lost some big pots against 22/33 etc hitting sets lately and don't know how I could possibly have avoided it short of giving up on AA when called post flop.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:32 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: Big 1 pair hands - Flop bet called....what now???? help

It depends [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

First off, how the rest of your game is will inform a little of how you play these situations. If you are double barreling a lot, then you'll want to double barrel when you have big hands.

Also, the type of opponent you are against will say a lot about what you should do. If I am up against an obvious set miner (someone with a super low VPIP) and we've managed to get the flop HU, I'll actually sometimes even check the flop. That is, even a set miner will sometimes look you up for a bet on the turn, "putting you on AK". If you can trick underpairs into calling/betting who did not intend to put any more money in without hitting a set, it's more money in your pocket (and it feels good to extract money from set miners).

Of course, pulling that with players in the pot who could be drawing or will pay off with weak hands misses value, so you really need to pay attention to who you are up against.

Another play I'll make against obvious set miners is to just keep raising their limps with semi trash hands in position (stuff like KT, Q9, etc.) Since they aren't planning on putting any more in without a set, you end up taking a lot of money from them with these types of hands because they'll almost never get payed off when they hit. Of course you have to be careful where you are and who is left to act. Nothing like raising with semi-trash and getting called by someone behind you.

As for playing against garden variety players who might have sets and who might have other hands, you have to look at the texture of the board, figure out what hands you are trying to get value from, what hands you are behind, and how those hands fit into your opponents ranges. As you get more information, you have to narrow those ranges. It's not easy to know when and how much to bet- this is not a game of standard pat answers. That is, the voice of experience will not be able to tell you, "check the turn with overpairs so you don't get stacked" or "you must bet here or you will miss value." In the end, you need to assess your opponents range hands and then make plays that maximize your earnings vs. that range. This means you'll get stacked sometimes. It also means you might fold the winning hand from time to time. But the better you get at hand reading and the more you understand your opponents, the better you'll get at putting your opponents on a range and making the correct decisions.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:25 AM
maca9 maca9 is offline
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Default Re: Big 1 pair hands - Flop bet called....what now???? help


Thanks Jeff for another awesome response.

Really helpful and makes sense.

Cheers
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:36 PM
JSampras1 JSampras1 is offline
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Default Re: Big 1 pair hands - Flop bet called....what now???? help

I kind of suck at NL, but those kind of situations give me a lot of trouble. I was gonna add some stuff, but Jeff put it better than i could, and i'm afraid i'd mess you up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You might want to check out Professional NL Holdem vol. 1. It's really interesting. They explain how to plan the hand preflop to make those decisions easier. Like 1/2 of the book is how to avoid difficult decisions with 1 pair, so i think it would really help! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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