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  #11  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:19 PM
thepizzlefosho thepizzlefosho is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

the problem is that people do take free cards if you try to c/r the turn. Plus if the club drops you are in a tough spot whether or not to c/r. If there are 3-clubs on the board after the turn you probably don't want 3 bets to go in unless you are full.

So if you bet-3-bet the flop he can't take a free card, and if he bluffs his flush draw again you can 3-bet the turn.

I think when OOP it is important to power through those flops when villain very likely has a draw.
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  #12  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:28 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

If he had CC'ed preflop then I absolutely 3b the flop. But the fact the he 3-bet preflop makes club draws so much less of his range, especially since the Qc is on the board. And if he did 3-bet something other than AcKc preflop (which is also betting the turn a bunch, imo), he's so aggro as to be much less likely to take the free card, especially given the pot size...
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  #13  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:42 PM
NinaWilliams NinaWilliams is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

[ QUOTE ]
If he had CC'ed preflop then I absolutely 3b the flop. But the fact the he 3-bet preflop makes club draws so much less of his range, especially since the Qc is on the board. And if he did 3-bet something other than AcKc preflop (which is also betting the turn a bunch, imo), he's so aggro as to be much less likely to take the free card, especially given the pot size...

[/ QUOTE ]

Its been my experience that people rarely take the free card after you raise the flop aswell. I want to 3 bet the flop because with QQ I can 3 bet the turn or c/r vs a cap, but with AA I cant.
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  #14  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:47 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he had CC'ed preflop then I absolutely 3b the flop. But the fact the he 3-bet preflop makes club draws so much less of his range, especially since the Qc is on the board. And if he did 3-bet something other than AcKc preflop (which is also betting the turn a bunch, imo), he's so aggro as to be much less likely to take the free card, especially given the pot size...

[/ QUOTE ]

Its been my experience that people rarely take the free card after you raise the flop aswell. I want to 3 bet the flop because with QQ I can 3 bet the turn or c/r vs a cap, but with AA I cant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, this is my exact rationale for NOT 3betting the flop with QQ...
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  #15  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:52 PM
NinaWilliams NinaWilliams is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he had CC'ed preflop then I absolutely 3b the flop. But the fact the he 3-bet preflop makes club draws so much less of his range, especially since the Qc is on the board. And if he did 3-bet something other than AcKc preflop (which is also betting the turn a bunch, imo), he's so aggro as to be much less likely to take the free card, especially given the pot size...

[/ QUOTE ]

Its been my experience that people rarely take the free card after you raise the flop aswell. I want to 3 bet the flop because with QQ I can 3 bet the turn or c/r vs a cap, but with AA I cant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, this is my exact rationale for NOT 3betting the flop with QQ...

[/ QUOTE ]

because you dont think he puts in further action with AA or KK?
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  #16  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:54 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

There are a lot of turns (i.e. this one) where a guy with AA/KK will slow down on the turn if I 3b the flop. JJ-88 also can get away cheaply.
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  #17  
Old 10-11-2007, 06:57 PM
thepizzlefosho thepizzlefosho is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

but if he has AA or KK you are going to get a ton of action anyway. What I don't want is to miss action against KJs, AJs, ATs, AKs, etc all that are well within a lot players pf 3-betting range. Also all of those hands might raise the flop and take a free card on the turn.

If I 3-bet the flop AA or KK are going to either cap (and I can c/r the turn) or wait and raise the turn so I can 3-bet. The only hands I'm worried about not getting enough action from are the flush draws. So that is why I play it fast. More action from big hands, more action from draws when I'm out of position.
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  #18  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:05 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

I see what you're saying. I suppose it would have helped if I had included a read in OP (LAGGY - Bad LAGATG, IIRC), but was never worried about giving a free card for the reasons mentioned above. I may be passing up a tiny bit of action vs. AA/KK, but I think I get just as much, if not more from FD, and definitely more from AQ/JJ-88. The only hands I'm costing myself a ton from are 44 and 55, and these are less likely both given card distribution and given that he 3-bet pre.
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:17 PM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of turns (i.e. this one) where a guy with AA/KK will slow down on the turn if I 3b the flop. JJ-88 also can get away cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]
JJ-88 get away cheaply when you b/c, c/r (they should at least since this line is ~never a bluff). everyone shows down JJ-88 when you 3-bet the flop.

vs. AA/KK you'll pretty much never get more than 3 bets on the turn and river when you take this line. on a turn blank, he will usually correctly place your hand range as AA-QQ. on a 9, T, or J turn, he can include 99, TT, or JJ respectively. on a club turn, he can include AcJc, AcKc. there's just no way you'll represent a hand against which he should 3-bet the turn.

3-betting the flop almost insures you making more off of AA (either he caps flop or calls and raises turn), and many will give you more action even with KK. i mean, when he calls the flop and raises the turn with AA, that's an additional 1.5 big bets compared to your line.
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  #20  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:19 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: A good spot for the miles dyson?

[ QUOTE ]
vs. AA/KK you'll pretty much never get more than 3 bets on the turn and river when you take this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain had AA in this hand.

Edit: Against a more competent opponent, I agree that 3-betting the flop is better - against a guy who will A) never take a free card and B) spew (which was my read on the villain. Like I said, I wasn't interested in flop play when I posted the hand...) I still think my line is best vs. his range.
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